To think that our expectations of babies behaviour in this country are too high?

[Tryharder]

There seems to have been a lot of threads around at the moment along the lines of "my baby is 5 weeks old and still won't sleep through the night" and "my baby won't go 4 hours between feeds, is she just greedy" or "my baby wants to be picked up a lot - is she just manipulative?" You get the picture....

Have just read a post about someone who left a very young baby to cry it out (don't ask me to link) and they are all smug about it because "it worked".

It makes me so cross and sad for the babies concerned who are subject to draconian regimes. Why are we so negative about babies in this country and so determined from Day one to impose on them a routine that makes our lives convenient, not theirs.

I know I will be flamed .

I saw one poist the other day that advised a mother to ignore her BF baby's (only little, can't remember the age) cries for food until 7 am or something as "you are in control remember". That made me sad, since when was this a battle of wills? DD is nearly 6 mo and has a good night time routine, but has never, and will never be left to cry or otherwise forced into anything.

YANBU. I can't bear the phrase, "making a rod for your own back," and find listening to babies cry far more stressful than just trying to meet their needs. I also find the idea of a routine stressful and actually found that ebf went well with no routine as there's no preparation needed. I can see how bottle-feeders would find it hard not to know when the next feed was coming, though.

I do understand that people have to do what makes life workable for them, though, and once the newborn phase is past I wouldn't judge people for trying to impose a little order into a baby's life - though I have never really tried with mine.

That said, I work full-time and still bf my 18 month old at night. I'm waiting for him to outgrow it like his brother did but it's not happening! Shock, horror - he's not exactly the same as his brother .

I am pretty happy with the way I've done things though and I hate it when people feel they have the right to comment and make me feel like I'm doing it 'wrong'.

Why do people bother comparing babies? They're not playdough blobs that come out and can be moulded at will. Everyone is individual. From birth.
If you want a clone exactly the same as a thousand others go and buy a Baby Bjorn doll.
There's no such thing as a naughty baby.

There's sleepers, screamers, those who need constant attention, and little souls who are content to just gurgle away.
And there's those who grow into children feeling insecure because their parents were forever comparing them to everyone else..

It always seems to be about control and making sure that your little tiny baby isn't some kind of teeny tyrant.

They're babies ffs. YADNBU.

You find your own routine, you and your baby or babies in my case. My dts slept through from 4 weeks not because I had some kind of power trip over them but because we just settled in to our own routine. I was lucky, they weren't particularly noisy babies but that was more to do with the fact they always were snuggled beside each other.

There is nothing worse than a competitive, control-freak parent. It is your baby not a f**king enemy!

And as for ignoring a crying baby, don't you ever sometimes just want a hug? Maybe they aren't hungry/full nappy but just want a little hug.

I also dispute the idea that because you haven't got a routine as such you must be flapping around in chaos every day. The baby and I have slowly evolved a 'routine', just because I have never tried to impose something on him doesn't mean that there is no structure at all to our lives.

I don't like the idea that the baby's needs/preferences should come last as they are 'only' a baby. That is why, imo, they should come first, where possible, because they are too young to understand concepts like, "Mummy's busy now, but she'll feed me in a minute etc."

Obviously, I don't mean that older children should be pushed down the pecking order as soon as a younger sibling arrives but I just don't like this mentality of, "Why should a baby be in control?"

I let DS1 "find his own routine" until he was 18 months old. The lack of sleep and chaos that ensued combined with returning to work when he was 4 months old drove me to within an inch of my sanity with severe anxiety and PND. I took some control of the situation with DC 2,3 and 4 and quite frankly it made life so much more pleasant and bearable. Having said that DC4 just had to follow the other DC's routine from day 1 including the schhol run and multiole after school activities.

"If a mother is rushing about, manically trying to feed an overtired baby"

Nope. Still can't see it. Newborns sleep in pushchairs or slings. You can feed on the go. Can honestly say that now all three of my children are older (5, 7 and 11) and less 'pliable', getting out the house in the morning is infinitely harder than when I was managing a toddler and a baby who was breastfed on demand. Funnily enough I have a very strict routine now in the mornings with my older children. For me though, not for them!

"or if older children at repeatedly woken up at all hours by a baby who has no routine"

All my babies had a routine. Their own. They woke to feed at night until they were between 8 months to 18 months. Can't remember that they ever woke each other up, or DH. Why would they? If their needs are being met they don't cry.

"because the whole family are a slave to whatever the baby is doing",

If you have to be in the house at a certain time because the baby always has its naps in its room, or you have to sit down and feed the baby at a certain time then you certainly are a slave to its needs. On the other hand if you can meet your baby's needs while you go about doing your own thing, as I did, you feel fairly free really. My babies slept in slings or in their pushchairs, and breastfed on the go. Everyone was happy. Content babies who're having all their needs met are easy to look after.

"Why do people bother comparing babies? They're not playdough blobs that come out and can be moulded at will. Everyone is individual. From birth"

Very true.

And reflecting on it, "Content babies who're having all their needs met are easy to look after" probably isn't. Some babies are hard work, even though their parents are doing a great job!

"If their needs are being met they don't cry"

you have clearly never met my dd2. She is carried, cuddled, co-slept, bfed on demand ie all the time, and can still find things to grizzle about. Some babies are just not placid types, and to infer that parents are not trying hard enough to be responsive to their needs is just another guilt trip.

fatlazymummy great post I agree

I also find the 'listen to your baby' stuff really hard to take because I TRIED that and failed and it didn't help my PND one bit

having a routine - knowing what was comming and feeling I had some control DID help

I NEVER left any of my 3 to cry EVER - I do hate the idea that a routine = neglect on some level

I doesnt have to be absolutely one extreme or the other ffs.
Do what you find easiest, and if that means co-sleeping and bf ing every twenty minutes, and you are happy with that, then thats great.

I dont beleive in cc for any baby under 6 months, and I do think babies need loads of closeness and cuddles, but just because you try and put a routine in place doesn't make you an uncaring or unnatural parent.

Actually, our function as parents in nature is to prepare our offspring to be independant.
This is a long slow process,obviously.

Also there is no shame in trying to make life easier for yourself as a mother.
I had my son on my own, and he didn't really respond much to anything I tried to get him to sleep (and I tried most things) but I think I had every reason to want to be getting more sleep, and feel less mental.

Cleofartra - what I meant was, you can't 'feed on the go', or leave your baby sleeping if you need to bf your baby, get ready for work, and both be out the door by 7.30. It's not possible. Therefore it's better to have a workable routine, than no routine at all, and risk your baby being overtired/hungry/ fractious.

A rigid routine for its own sake is not desirable.

A routine which works for the WHOLE family is.

We would not have been a happy family if I'd been sacked for showing up late at work because I was sitting at home bf my baby. My older children would not have felt good about themselves being dragged into school late because I'd been following the baby's routine rather than looking after the whole family's needs

Twoif I so agree! I've heard so many people say "oh he's just crying for attention" as if that's a bad thing, well so fucking what? If I want attention I go and get it, if I'm bored I do something to make me not bored. A baby isn't capable of doing that so it cries to get those things instead.

So many people seem to see it as a power struggle it makes me so sad.

yanbu.

Completely agree with lecce
I've always been of an 'each to their own' persuasion on bringing up DC and as such have never been a 'competitive' parent.

Unfortunately, those I have met whose views differed from mine have not always been so generous to me.

I have been told it's 'weird' to co sleep (DD has just gone into her own bed aged 22 months as I'm expecting DC2 in 2 weeks). That babywearing and BFing on demand is 'making a rod for my own back' and doing it after 6 months - 1 year is 'weird' too (DD self weaned at 16 months when I got pg).

Don't get me wrong, it hasn't all been plain sailing but DD found her own routine, did everything when she was ready and is happy and confident. I am too, because we did what suited us and will do with DC2 who will probably be completely different! :)

each to their own.

not ever having a routine with DD means that it doesn't mater if food is a bit late or early. I don't think, oh now it's time to nap, she just sleeps when she wants, there's no bedtime routine that must be stuck to etc etc

having no routine meant I could go back to work when she was 5 weeks old, with her in a sling and we just got on with it.

but then I'm someone who's never had a 9-5 job, who's never really had a routine in my life - there was no way I was about to start once DD arrived, even if I'd tried I think I would've given up sharpish.

I totally get that a different mother living a different kind of life would want and need a routine.

Leaving tiny babies to cry when you don't have to (if you're not having to juggle 2+ children) is something else though, I just don't get it.

Agree with Fatlazymummy.

However, I also believe that whilst some see a routine as a bit cruel, it is also a bit cruel to have no routine at all for 2years, and then suddenly decide you need one because you haven't had a nights sleep for 2 years.

Babies are indiviuals, and as they develop personalities, you slowly elvolve to accomodate each others traits. Only you and your baby know if you're doing the best, because there's no-one else party to every single aspect facet of the special relationship.
All our adult friends are different. Some friends are needy, some are scatterbrained, some are annoyingly unpunctual, some are outspoken. We learn to love and accept each other as people, and you can be sure that no-one has the same relationship as you do with your friend.

Same goes for your baby. If you think what you're doing is right and your baby is healthy you have nothing to worry about. In time you'll have a thousand unspoken interractions between the two of you as your life goes on. You will know when the other is full of the joys of Spring, unhappy, upset. They will be special and unique to just you two.

Your baby as a person, is unique. And so is the relationship you share.

I disagree with those who are saying that babies NEED to be GIVEN routines. Babies will find a routine, yes, but they do not need to be forced into one. A baby will sleep when it is tired, eat when it is hungry and ask for cuddles when it needs them. It is our job as parents to meet those needs. Every baby is different and will need things at different times so it is absolutely ridiculous to think that there is a one-size-fits-all routine for every child. Forcing a baby to sleep and eat at a certain time and only giving cuddles when you decide it is appropriate (at the risk of your baby learning to manipulate you ) is selfish at best. You are not doing what is best for your baby - you are doing what is best for YOU and trying to fit the baby into that.

OP, YANBU - the expectations that we have of babies and the general competitive parenting that goes on in this country is absolutely ridiculous.

cruel to leave a small ,hungry baby crying for food. what else is it supposed to do. not about control,its about taking care of their basic need.
don't have a baby if not prepared to get up in night to it in first few months

very emotive words there Bubbley - well done

mine had routines - they where neither forced into one or made part of some competition

they still have one - because as a responsible mum I need them to go to sleep - to rest - to get to school on time etc

You can get a baby into a routine without using force - what a silly comment

A routine can mean anything from getting up at the same time every morning and having a bedtime routine at the same time every night to hourly scheduled feedings/naps/play times.

We all have a routine.

However, I think it's sad to force babies into rigid feeding and napping routines at a tiny age when they're only weeks old with tiny tiny stomachs. Also treating them like they're some sort of evil being hellbent on getting a cuddle from mummy. How dare they

I wasted time weeping in the early weeks because DS wouldn't be "sleeping" when he should be. I should have burned the books from day one.

However when he got older, it made sense to structure his day around feeds and, later on, solids and now he's very settled for it.

Not silly gordy - some people (not all) establish routines with force. Eg - putting a baby down to sleep at a certain time regardless of whether or not it is tired and letting it cry itself to sleep or not feeding until a certain number of hours have passed even though the baby is crying because it is hungry. I am not against the idea of routines - I just think babies find their own routines and they shouldn't be forced into them because the parent would rather look at the clock than at their baby's cues.

Well said Iggly.