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Original poster

To be shocked on the way the girls are dressed on My big fat Gypsie Wedding

215 replies

pigletmania · 25/01/2011 22:32

I understand that the Gypsie/travelling community have very high morals, why the hell are the little girls dressed like mini lolitas Hmm. Flesh everywhere, and dressed in a sexual manner. Its fine for the adults if they want to dress like that and wear those big wedding dresses, but not kids. They are just little girls.

OP posts:
penelopestitsdropped · 26/01/2011 00:13

Munaka - in your limited opinion of the social structures of the travelling community, based entirely on a provocativly edited tv show about how vulgar their dresses are - you feel you can asses the female communities worth?

Is it any different to the cultures where the males will browse the young available women and then provide a dowry to the father of the girl he chooses for his wife.
the father will decide to accept. the Woman has little choice

we are again feeling it ok to judge one culture whilst accepting the differences of another.

Original poster
pigletmania · 26/01/2011 00:13

I am not judging because they are travellers, I am being judgy because of the type of get up the young girls were wearing. The same way as i was judgy when I saw a little girl down the street in the summer, dressed up in much the same way too.

OP posts:
penelopestitsdropped · 26/01/2011 00:17

because you are judging these young girls (and presumably the mothers that buy their clothes) by your standards.

These girls are bought up in a very very tight nit community. they will very rarely spend time alone with anyone not from their community and will certainly not be left anywhere of any risk.

The Incidences of sexual abuse with travelling communities is actually much much lower than most others.

Original poster
pigletmania · 26/01/2011 00:19

I am taking it at face value penelope, if you have a young daughter would you let her dress in that way.

OP posts:
Munaka · 26/01/2011 00:20

You have no idea if my opinion is limited or not, Penelope.

For what it's worth, it isn't.

I cannot contrast it to the dowry system as it's entirely different. For a start, it isn't based on the girls at 8 years old Hmm

And secondly, when the 'available young women' are chose, they aren't in bikinis (practically) or under the age of 8/9 yo

penelopestitsdropped · 26/01/2011 00:21

I have a 6 year old daughter.

No i wouldn't. But then i am not a traveller.

penelopestitsdropped · 26/01/2011 00:22

and travellers don't marry their daughters off aged 8 either.

bubblewrapped · 26/01/2011 00:24

The Incidences of sexual abuse with travelling communities is actually much much lower than most others

Lets just say the instances of reported cases would seem lower.

Like many other cultures, some things are dealt with internally, and nobody would know other than the group themselves what the truth is.

First cousins marrying is only a very close step away from incest, but it is a common occurence.

Munaka · 26/01/2011 00:25

Will you address the fact the dowries cannot be compared to dressing your child provocatively, preparing them for the whole grabbing ritual?

As it has been stated, communion is a rehearsal for a wedding

Munaka · 26/01/2011 00:27

For example, the reported level of alcoholism and domestic violence is very low.

The unofficial figures are off the charts

penelopestitsdropped · 26/01/2011 00:27

As in a great number of other communities Bubble.

unfortunatly we can only go on reported cases. But I do know that Paedophilia really isn't something that is an issue in travelling communities. It just doesn't seem to happen.

And i work within a field that would mean i would know if it did. certainly with teh communities i work with

bubblewrapped · 26/01/2011 00:29

Penelope. I have very close family links to the community. It goes on. It is kept private.

Alcoholism and domestic violence is rife.

penelopestitsdropped · 26/01/2011 00:31

I think they are comparable actually.
You say that the traveller girls only commodity is their body.

In some asian cultures the women don't even have that. The modesty laws don't allow it.
They are chosen by how well behaved they are, how religious they are, how obedient they are likely to be to their husband.

At least the travellers actually choose thier own husbands.

penelopestitsdropped · 26/01/2011 00:32

oh i have not denied the Dv and alcoholism comment. That is indeed a huge problem.

Again, not only within the travelling communities though.

Munaka · 26/01/2011 00:36

The reported levels of everything including DV, abuse, alcoholism are all lower than the average.

The reality is ver, very different.

We are deviating from the point here. And the fact is that is is entirely inappropriate to dress your 8 year old like that.

In training for in about 8 years time when they get grabbed.

penelopestitsdropped · 26/01/2011 00:39

But travellers don't see children as children as such. more like trainee adults.
the boys are expected to go out with their male relatives and learn the trades.
the girls are taught how to keep the homes and care for their men.

To us it seems wrong. and as a feminist there is much i would love to change. But it is their way and change will happen in time. the more integrated they become in Mainstream society the weaker the cultural chains become.

We canot judge them by our values.

bubblewrapped · 26/01/2011 00:40

As the reported levels of abuse are unknown, and anything like that is kept within the barriers of the community, it is fair to say that the children dressing the way they do is putting them more at risk.

The documentary will only show what the communities want us to see, and I think many of us know that there is a side to it that will not be shown.

penelopestitsdropped · 26/01/2011 00:42

and some of us have experience of the travelling community that goes beyond the tv show (which i didn'y watch)

Munaka · 26/01/2011 00:46

Trainee adults? Hmm

"to us it seems wrong". What, dressing your daughters as hookers? Letting them dance like pole dancers?

Yeah. Damn right it 'seems' wrong. Because, er, it is.

Anyone got a brick wall they wouldn't mind me banging my head against?

Munaka · 26/01/2011 00:48

Oh, and some of us other do as well, Penelope.

penelopestitsdropped · 26/01/2011 00:48

you think it is wrong.

100 years ago your great aunties would be sitting agog at the thought of you allowing your daughter to go out in her underwear (leggings)

it is perspective and social value. yours are very different to theirs

penelopestitsdropped · 26/01/2011 00:50

I am not disputing that manuka, merely pointing out that my opinions are not based on a possibly heavily edited tv show and instead on years of working with the communities in a trusted role.

Munaka · 26/01/2011 00:51

What a stupid response. I'm not questioning the practices of communities 100 years ago.

At least they wouldn't have put their daughters in bra tops Hmm

Social value means allowing your 8 yo to wear that? Perspective?

mutznutz · 26/01/2011 00:54

I'm with you OP, I think the dress sense is far too adult and far too tarty looking for children.

Just because they're travellers doesn't make a blind bit of difference to me. I can't stand seeing little children dressed in OTT adult outfits no matter which community they come from.

penelopestitsdropped · 26/01/2011 00:56

communities evolve at varying rates.

mainstream western thinking says that a lot of things are "wrong" or socially frowned upon.

yet in other cultures they seem to have yet reached similar conlusions. only through education and understanding can we hope to achieve anything.

There area great many ways in wich the travelling community seem decades behind "us"
sexism and equality being just the tip of the iceburg.

so comparing the scenarios to our own culture some years ago is not too far removed