To think it's about time we could choose the sex of our babies..

[Articulate]

Provided we already have one of the opposite sex. Horrible story in the DM (yes, I know)..about an Australian woman aborting healthy twin boys because they wanted a girl.

Yes, utterly vile and unnacceptable, but couldn't this have been avoided if she could have chosen the sex?

Like I said , only if you already have one of the opposite sex (or two maybe)...

I find all this sooo sad. And these enduring stereotypes of the "rampaging" boys and the "demure" girls are just utterly tedious.

It is utterly tragic that boys are constantly villified these days. My boys don't "rampage" - they play brilliantly. Yes, they have a lot of energy but since when has that been a bad thing?

If you want a showpiece to dress up and parade around buy a doll.

A lot of you are missing my point (not all). I expected it to be honest.

I find it sad that people have 5 or 6 (or more) of one gender in their persuit of a certain sex. I find it sad that people need to have therapy to deal with gender dissappointment. I find it sad that people abort healthy babies because they aren't the sex they wanted.

I am not talking about China, India or other countries that favour boys for socialogical reasons.

I am talking about the UK mainly, a democracy in which the vast majority of people who maybe has 2 or 3 girls and would like a boy and vice versa.

I'd bet willing to bet that the vast majority of people who suggest gender selection is 'vile' have mixed gender families (or dare I say it, all girl families).

I am sorry for those who have had unsuccessful IVF and would be more than happy with any child, of course I am, but that isn't what I'm talking about here.

Doesn't matter whether or not it is here, India, China, the reasons against it are the same, the motivation is not really relevant. Unless you're saying that because we are a Western democracy we deserve to choose yet these other countries don't?

For me, the solution is to make it impossible for people to abort on gender grounds, not easier to select gender in the first place.

So you don't think it's OK to choose for sociological reasons, but it is okay to chose because you 'would like it?'. How is this more acceptable? Have 2 boys, am pg, would truely be happy with either boy or girl. Am frankly astonished that anybody would care what gender their child was (medical reasons excepted of course). Somebody early on said having children is not a right, couldn't agree more.

You think this doesn't happen in the UK Articulate? I don't think people are missing the point. The UK is exempt from valid criticism because you think it's special or superior for some reason? Jog on.

"So you don't think it's OK to choose for sociological reasons, but it is okay to chose because you 'would like it?'. How is this more acceptable?"

Are you serious??

"Am frankly astonished that anybody would care what gender their child was (medical reasons excepted of course)."

Marvellously empathetic. It's not my issue so therefore it's bollocks.

sigh.

Articulate, I'm not missing your point at all - don't be so bloody patronising. And I have TWO BOYS so no, I don't have the Nirvana of an all girl family .

You clearly are not a fan of boys. I know many like you sadly. It makes me so bloody angry that people like you assume I should be disappointed that I have boys. I assure you I am not in the least disappointed. I have two happy, healthy, bright, gorgeous children. They are wonderful and yes, they were conceived after years of IF.

It is an awful suggestion for so many many reasons. Not least because of the ridiculous notions of 'girlhood' that some mothers seem to have of this little princess they will be able to raise in their own image. Total bollocks.

I think it is a dreadful idea! Children are not accessories and I think it is wonderful that people get what they are given. A healthy child is all that matters.

I didn't say it didn't happen in the UK earwicga. Which is sort of my reasoning.

Uk superior? No.

"Jog on". Well reasoned, nice one.

Knitting Rocks..it utterly delights me to say that I have two beautiful boys, and I am extremely happy with them.

Enjoyed typing that btw.

I am certainly not trying to patronise anybody (else).

Thanks Articulate :)

People are controlling enough with their DCs, so it is good for them to have things outside their control!

Is n't just a matter of how far you would go ? When we were trying for dd I read a book called choosing the sex of your child or something, it provided advice about what to eat and when to have sex. I don't think anyone would object to that. However nearly everyone finds aborting healthy infants because they are the "wrong" gender.
In between these 2 extremes are shades of grey such as sperm selection,or gender selection with IVF (in a couple undergoing IVF anyway for example). In the cases of hereditary diseases I beleive couples are offered gender selection through IVF at the moment, which personally I dont have a problem with.

Thinking this through if infertile couples are offered is it 3? Cycles on the NHS then why shouldn't other couples be offered the chance to have the boy/girl they have always wanted? I think the majority would not go through the invasive proceedures, just to have the gender they desire. However if couples are willing to go through it, perhaps they should be allowed to. It might save pyschological trauma and futher unsucessful attempts at producing the desired gender.

I think that saying that having a boy/girl might not fufil expectations is daft. I know plenty of couple who try for years go through many cycles of IVF then are completely polaxed by the realitieof parenthood. Nobody suggests that because of this they should n't undergo treatment.
Twenty years ago people would have been agahst at fertility treatment of women in their late thirtieon the NHS this is now commonplace.

I don't think it's right but dd was my fifth pg and we had ds2 for three weeks after being born at 27 weeks. I know also that pg 1 (17 weeks) was a boy. Now, we didn't expect 5th pg to actually materialise but it did - at 41.5 weeks (51 weeks after the birth of ds2) - quite incredibly and an 8lb 6oz girl born in less than 2 hours with an apgar score of 9+.

Now we would never have done anything to prevent a girl and we both utterly adore dd. But if I had been able to wave a magic wand I would have replaced that little boy and although I'm ashamed to admit it now - I had to learn to love dd - it wasn't instant like it was for ds1.

Eventually the fairy dust arrived and my love grew (oddly DH adored her from the first second and he hadn't been able to understand that when ds1 was born) and grew and grew and I love her to utter bits and wouldnt' have had it any other way.

Just saying - not always that easy or rational and I can understand why some people would want to chose but not how they don't love what they have already to want something different. I think it's much more complex than we can possibly imagine.

Sorry bit long and ranty and touchy for me.

naughtymummy, please don't perpetuate the myth that IF couples have three cycles of IVF on the NHS - very very very few achieve this. Most couples I know who have had IVF have paid for it themselves (running up debts of between £15k and £100k).

The thought that anybody would be allowed IVF FREE to enable them to have a girl just so they could "buy all the lovely clothes" (and yes, this is what I am told time and time again is the reason I should be disappointed about 'only' having boys ) is so distasteful.

Thankfully most right-minded people would agree that this is not the job of the NHS in anyway shape and form and so it would never be considered.

Articulate, do you have girls also? If not, I'm all the more staggered by some of your comments.

I wouldn't have a problem with people choosing the gender of their baby. Much better that they do this, than abort babies that are the 'wrong' sex or have several children that they didn't really want because they were trying for the elusive boy/girl.

I think in places like China where boys seem to be more highly valued, you would initially get more boys chosen, but a shortage of girls would result in people needing to select females, so would eventually even itself out. Sex selection already happens here anyway, with abortions and girls ending up in orphanages.

I would much rather see sperm sorting than abortions and abandonment of babies which are not what the parents wanted.

I don't mind the idea of sperm sorting, but i do dislike the idea of rejecting embryos, because to me that feels a bit like rejecting an actual baby.

Having said all that, I would never do it (unless we had a genetic illness which only affected one gender). I wanted the babies that Mother Nature blessed me with. Their gender was not really important and so I wouldn't have used this even if it had been available.

Ok, I am not advocating that gender selection should be free, just to clarify. That would be grossly unfair on the people who have to pay for IVF to have ANY child. People should have to pay for gender selection.

No, Knitting ..I don't have daughters, what comments are you talking about?

just want to add that the couple who are aborting twin boys, just because they are not girls, should be compulsorily sterilized imo, as they are not fit to parent any children.

pawsnclaws Thanks and i am so sorry for your DHs friends. I can only imagine what they are going through.

I probably did miss your point Articulate but that's because i just can't undertand the concept of being dissapointed with having a child of the 'wrong' gender - and probably never will. Although in fairness, i guess i also don't understand what it is like to have 2 or 3 children either!

This one particularly:

"I'd bet willing to bet that the vast majority of people who suggest gender selection is 'vile' have mixed gender families (or dare I say it, all girl families)."

It doesn't make you sound happy with your lot I have to say.

karma, I wouldn't sterilize them but certainly no IVF clinic should treat them. It does all IVF patients a huge disservice. I would be devastated if I knew people like that were sat in the waiting room with me when I was waiting for yet another depressing consultation, or to be told I'd had another m/c.

I feel so sorry for their boys .

As someone with two children of the same sex I am fucking APPALLED that you think that should 'entitle' me to have a child of the other sex.

I love the children I have, and if I had a third I would be overjoyed with a third girl. I'm actually quite offended that you think I should have to be provided with this kind of sick service.

I don't think I said it should be availble on the NHS ,I dont. I don't realy know if it should be availible at all ? on demand" . Perhaps a pyschological assesment of some kind ? In the hospital I work in couples get 3 cycles on the NHS I am aware it is a postcode lottery ( like so much else) What to do with healthy embryos that are not implanted is a question which inenevitabley arises from any IVF .

I have to wonder if a couple prepared to abort two healthy babies because they are the wrong gender should be having children at all, let alone be able to choose the gender. It's appalling and they obviously have serious issues which need to be resolved.

I am not keen on the idea of gender selection, except in the case of gender specific life limiting genetic illnesses, but it is available and if the couple mentioned in the OP were so concerned they should have opted for this instead of aborting babies once they turned out to be the 'wrong' sex.

Ouch Knitting!! I AM happy with my lot, that's not fair.

What i meant by that comment was that it seems to be within uk society one boy/one girl is the most highly prized ideal.

And it very much feels, at least here on MN, that 3 girls would be infinitely preferable to 3 boys. It's also a fact that families with 2 girls are far more likely to stop at 2 than families with 2 boys who tend to go on to have another (the girl grail).

Aside from you disagreeing with me re. gender selection, I agree with you, i'm actually as annoyed as you by all the boy-bashing i've experienced. I adore my boys, they're my world.

I'm trying to say that people who are v. happy with their child's gender are far more likely to disagree with gender selection...and can't seem to put themselves into the shoes of others who yearn for a certain gender.