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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

Original poster

to not 'do' santa?

441 replies

jmt2211 · 30/11/2010 21:27

I don't believe in Santa and refuse to lie to my child about it. The first year he could ask about it was when he was 3 and I just said that lots of people liked to believe in Santa but really he was just pretend.
I have yet to find a single person who has done the same, even if I can get them to agree in principle, no one will agree in practice. I'd love to hear what others think (other than that I am a Scrooge) and see if anyone agrees with me....

OP posts:
MNHQ
JustineMumsnet · 02/12/2010 22:45

[quote maryz]

maryz · 02/12/2010 22:52

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

scottishmummy · 02/12/2010 22:55

op isnt much of a loss?who made you judge of worthiness mary.isnt up to you to determine whom is ok to post and whom is dispensable

MNHQ
JustineMumsnet · 02/12/2010 22:57

Well yes, that's a fair point about the first deletion Maryz - that said I think it's never a bad time to remind folk on the AIBU board of our rules on personal attacks Xmas Wink.

JoBettany · 02/12/2010 23:15

I posted earlier on this thread.

I don't like the idea that when someone is being called names is is somehow their fault.

I think that is a fairly murky area to be getting into, IMO.

I also agree with scottishmummy. Everyone has a right to post on here. Just because their opinions don't match yours maryz, doesn't mean that in some way not worthy of posting on MN.

maryz · 02/12/2010 23:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

JoBettany · 02/12/2010 23:39

I have read the thread very carefully. I am not defending anything the OP has posted, just her right to do so.

However, once again, the OP is being blamed for other people calling her names.

It's just not something I'm comfortable with.

Jumpty · 02/12/2010 23:44

Getting too caught up in the name-calling issue is being overly formalistic. I think the OPs posts were at least as offensive as the names she was called (especially to missmoopy) and I don't really see the difference between "you're being idiotic" and "you're an idiot" on my offendometer. The Talk Guidelines do take account of the fact that people spend time and energy with their responses and I think that's what many find frustrating here. I don't like being told "I'd respond to your post but I don't want to give you the impression I care what you think" - rude and childish.

The Guidelines are important but so is the general approach of being thin-skinned when reporting offence. IMO the OP could have been told "your views are provocative and you've been offensive yourself, the insult is fairly mild, so we're not going to do anything this time". Appreciate that Justine has recognised maryz's original post shouldn't have been deleted.

Allowing one poster to inflame the issue then have posts deleted is a charter for wind up artists and trolls.

Jumpty · 02/12/2010 23:45

Sorry JoBettany, why does she have a right to be so insulting to others and so thin-skinned?

Mum2HarryandBen · 02/12/2010 23:48

You are an idiot is a personal attack, I think your behaviour is idiotic is not, you are attacking the behaviour not the person.

JoBettany · 02/12/2010 23:53

I'm sorry Jumpty, but I have to disagree with you, but we have already had this discussion upthread.

I think it's fair to say we will have to agree to disagree on this one!

FWIW, I think she simply mis-judged AIBU as I did when I first joined. It's an easy mistake to make, Xmas Smile, but not one to be repeated...

Jumpty · 03/12/2010 00:03

I understand the distinction but one isn't more offensive than the other since we don't actually know each other. We're only ever talking about "your posts make you seem like an idiot" which is the same as "your behaviour is idiotic" which isn't much to be getting worked up about it.

Anyway, that's a minor point. The more important one is that you shouldn't be able to insult others then complain that you have been insulted.

Jumpty · 03/12/2010 00:11

JoBettany I don't think we did. I agreed I shouldn't have cross-posted the other thread but we didn't discuss whether you should be able to insult others then report the insults they respond with. I honestly think the posts that were deleted were proportionate to the offensiveness of the OP's posts. It's not a question of blaming her for her being called names nor of misjudging AIBU. She was engaging in a provocative discussion in an offensive way but she was so convinced of her moral superiority that she couldn't see it.

BecauseImWorthIt · 03/12/2010 00:42

Woo hoo - my message was deleted too!

I vaguely recollecting calling what the OP was doing 'horrible'

Sorry, MNHQ/Justine - but this is AIBU, and opinions are going to be fairly heated.

I don't realy think that 'horrible' is that offensive, given the overall context of this thread.

And now the thread is pretty holey - perhaps it would have been better to delete the whole thing, especially if the OP is so sensitive/upset about it?

CheekyLittleSox · 03/12/2010 01:02

3 yr old is abit young!

My boys are 4 and 2 and they believe. Santa has their presents in the North Pole with his reindeer and elves.

I think the best part of christmas is childrens make believe stories that they believe in Father Christmas/Santa

Jumpty · 03/12/2010 01:06

There are now 21 deleted messages here. Why was my message at Wed 01-Dec-10 20:45:00? I recall that message was telling OP to "fuck right off" Is that not allowed?

nooka · 03/12/2010 04:28

I think that this thread should remain so that if anyone ever has the temerity to say that they don't believe in Santa and aren't practicing this particular myth then they will know never to mention it on mumsnet. I've been here for a few years now and this always happens. For some peculiar reason people find it incredibly upsetting to know that some families don't sign up to the whole Father Christmas thing.

I have never ever experienced this degree of unpleasantness in RL.

And as for the OPs 'sin' of explaining to her child that the presents his nursery friends are telling him are coming from Santa re in reality coming from their parents and family, just like his are, what on earth is she supposed to say? It's totally ridiculous to expect other people to comply with your make believe and to get so upset when quite reasonably they don't.

TyraG · 03/12/2010 06:26

nooka

Wait, so you want people to be considerate of anyone who doesn't do Santa (which I have no problem with - other than telling her DC that all other parents are lying) but don't think people who do Santa deserve the same consideration in not telling other kids there's no Santa. That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Respect is a two way street if you don't give it, you don't get it and she respected no one. In fact it seems that she just randomly reported threads that she didn't like. What she needs to do is put her big girl panties on and deal with it.

I understand not everyone will agree all the time and that's fine (who wants to be around a bunch of 'yes men') but you can't sit there and tell other parents that they are out and out lying to their children by saying Santa is real then saying that you don't care if your kid ruins it for other kids and not expect people to get a bit miffed.

TyraG · 03/12/2010 06:26

oops threads should be posts

nooka · 03/12/2010 06:37

Not sure what you are talking about to be honest. I've always told my children to be respectful of other people's traditions (partly because I'm an atheist in a family of quite religious Christians), and they have never to my knowledge said anything about Santa to another child, I don't really know why they would as it's not a big deal to them. In the same way that most children seem to cope fine with other children having different religions or a variety of traditions, and don't in general go about bursting other people's balloons.

However I'm not going to lie to my children or to upset them because of other people would like their children to believe FC is really really real.

I think that people have been really unpleasant here just because someone does things differently to them. So what? It's not as if Santa is actually important is it? I meant we're not talking about faith are we, just a little bit of fun/magic/pretend according to the majority of pro-FC posters here. I just really really don't understand why people get so riled up by this. Is Christmas somehow destroyed once your children stop believing in Santa?

TyraG · 03/12/2010 06:40

The point is no one but the parent has the right to tell their children about Santa not being real. Again, it's about respecting other people's family traditions.

It's not lying to your child to say that we don't believe in Santa but some people do and that's okay.

nooka · 03/12/2010 06:54

And that's fine, and in practice probably what most families do. But what if the child then (as children do) says something like "Mary says that Santa is getting her x, y, z, why don't I get presents from Santa" is it really that unreasonable to say something along the lines of "Mary's parents/family are probably buying those presents just like we buy yours".

The other thing is that the FC thing has now become so widespread and accepted as normal that random strangers ask your children "what's Santa bringing you" on a fairly regular basis, TV is full of it, schools are full of it, it's hard to escape, so it is hard not to talk about it with your children, and being children they do ask questions.

I really don't remember it all being quite such a big deal when I was a child. I certainly don't remember ever having to be told "don't talk about Santa because someone might get upset" or for that matter telling anyone "Santa's just your mum and dad" because I always knew that presents were (mostly) from my mum and dad, so it wasn't some great revelation. I suspect that the children who are most likely to do that are those that used to believe it was all true and then found out it wasn't.

Jumpty · 03/12/2010 07:14

nooka, read the thread if you're going to pass judgement. You've missed the point.

TyraG · 03/12/2010 07:33

Not it's not unreasonable to say that to your child and if you have to say that to your child then your child clearly doesn't understand what you've told them about how you don't do Santa. Perhaps that calls for explaining it a bit more clearly and on a level they can understand. But also letting them know that it's okay to tell other children that they don't believe in Santa as long as they don't spoil anything for other kids. Geez it's really not that hard to understand. Jumpty's right, you are TOTALLY missing the point.

TyraG · 03/12/2010 07:35

oops that should be no it's not unreasonable