to not want to perpetuate the Santa myth?

[WriterofDreams]

I know this might seem totally weird, and I am completely open to being told IABU, so do your worst!

My first baby is on the way and DH and I have been talking about the whole Santa thing. We're both a little ambivalent about it. I hate hate hate lying to children as I was lied to a lot as a child, not necessarily in a nasty way, more in a dismissive, "none of your business" sort of way. It made a big impression on me. I was a very intelligent and horrendously serious child (I see that now) but the Santa thing was something that hacked me off big time. From about the age of 4 Santa stopped making sense to me and I bombarded my mum with questions which were responded to with lie after lie after lie.

I know she was trying to keep the "magic" alive for me but it was truly baffling to me as a child and really annoyed me. For example, I thought, if Santa can get around the world in one night, why does it take 24 hours to get to Australia? Why doesn't he sell his technology to people who are in disaster areas and help them rather than giving out plastic crap to children? All this got me was "because he's magic." That just didn't wash at all with me, and Santa actually became this scary figure who had huge power but wouldn't share it with anyone else. The whole elves and toy workshop thing just confused me more, as I was aware toys were made by toy companies who sold them for profit. Yes, I know, I was a ridiculous child.

I had hugely mixed feelings when I discovered Santa wasn't real. This happened when I was about 6 but I didn't let on as I thought I wouldn't get presents if I didn't pretend to believe (another negative thing). On the one hand I felt relieved he wasn't real because it answered all my questions. On the other hand I felt annoyed at my mum for not just telling me he wasn't real when it was clear I was so hung up about the whole thing (I realise now she was trying to protect my older sister, who still believed).

I just know I'm going to have a hard time pretending to my LO that Santa exists. I hate that perplexed look on children's faces when you can see they know you're lying but they're trying to believe because they trust you and don't think you could lie to them :(
At the same time I know that not having the Santa thing would mark him out as totally different from other kids and could make life really hard for him, particularly if he feels left out.

Any opinions?

At the same time I know that not having the Santa thing would mark him out as totally different from other kids and could make life really hard for him, particularly if he feels left out.

Our DC so far have no been marked out as different. Eldest DC did Santa list at school last year with no problems while knowing that Mum and Dad brought and put all the presents in the loft - caused no issues at all for her.

Even when I knew Santa was not 'real' I did not go round telling other DC - I assumed all the other DC knew and indeed never encountered any other DC telling people this. So no problems there either.

NonBlond- I suppose it is the context in which the "outrageous lies" are set. I had/ have a really close relationship with my parents. They didn't patronise me in any way, ever. I was probably actually quite a precocious child My parents were very upfront with me in every other way- I knew the facts of life ever since I can remember, they answered every question I ever asked, they involved me in all family plans/ discussions. I was very much respected and never treated as stupid. And we had a lot of fun together

As with my children. I talk to them about all sorts of things- tonight we were talking about 9/11, why people want to hurt other people etc. I think the realism needs a balance, that's all

I suppose what I've decided from all the posts is that it really depends on the child, so I'll have to play it by ear. For me Santa holds no magic so I don't know how enthusiastically I could play the game if necessary.

Also I know this will sound weird but for me there is magic, real magic in the world in the sense that it is full of amazing things. Give me a class who are seeing pictures of the solar system, or watching a really cool science experiment like the iodine snake for the first time over ones being fed lines about Santa any day! Children do love that sort of discovery and wonder and the thing is that it is real, it won't just stop one day, it gets even more interesting the more you look into it.

Games like your Hobbit game are lovely Jollyjoolyjoo, and I would certainly play things like that with my DCs as it is form of interaction rather than some standard myth that the children are expected to swallow whole.

You might find that you discover the magic when you see the wonder in your child's eyes. I hope you do - that magic is such a wonderful part of raising children - for both child and parent, if done right.

Writer- I agree that there is magic in things like the solar system and nature- one doesn't need to preclude the other. But to a 4yo the solar system and the big bang are just as mystical as santa- they are both equally uncomprehensible and mysterious

I never believed the santa myth and although I went along with the whole stocking and reindeer dust thing with my Dc it was all with a massive wink and an 'isnt this nonesense all a lot of fun' style.

I cant see why you cant have all the 'magic' of christmas and still be honest with Dc.
I always thought the children over the age of 5 who still believed where a bit thick not to have worked it out.

"I always thought the children over the age of 5 who still believed where a bit thick not to have worked it out"

Or maybe they are just naive. Naive in small children ain't a bad thing in my book

(just for the record, dd1 is definitely not "a bit thick"!)

Joolyjoolyjoo you could be right about the context I think both mine and DH parents were more formal in their relationships with us - less playful.

I certainly play with the DC - actively participating when we need to embark on bear hunts what ever our location or be agents for the number jacks, or go exploring the arctic or when I need to turn into a car/garage/balloon - but none of us pretend it is real. Like you we also try and talk about everything believing it is a matter of pitching information at their level.

We just do not view Santa as essential.

WinterofDreams
For me Santa holds no magic so I don't know how enthusiastically I could play the game if necessary.

Being a car holds no magic for me - but I find I get sucked into their excitement and games.

NonBLonde, thanks for the NS story, interesting.

I do believe in telling ds the truth - have been surprised by how many other parents are squeamish about telling children how babies are made, for instance. As soon as ds asked I explained (in an age-appropriate manner). But I don't see FC as a lie, just a magical story.

Blimey, have just realised I really HAVE turned into my own mother. Who had me drawing diagrams of the female reproductive system as soon as I asked 'Mummy, where do babies...' but played the FC game very enthusiastically even when she realised I knew but was suspending my disbelief.

I like to believe that my children were neither naive nor unimaginative but intelligent enough to understand the concept of suspension of disbelief .

Actually, Santa has proved a far less thorny issue than Jesus, since with Santa we are all doing the suspension of disbelief together: with Jesus it's only me that believes and they would be very uncomfortable if I forced them to go along precisely because it is serious.

My parents did the whole father christmas thing but tbh I never believed in him because, quite frankly, it's a clearly unbelievable story, even to children.

However I went along with it because it was still magical, despite knowing it wasn't true and it's a part of Christmas.

'Joolyjoolyjoo - I think this is a one mans meat is another mans poison thing. I hate the 'outrageous lies' when adults did it to me as a child and DH says the same. We felt patronized and resented playing along with the adult delusions and we would have preferred the truth and the acknowledgement we were not stupid and were respected

I think that this is so sad. I was only 6yrs old when I realised but I knew instinctively why my parents had done it and I didn't feel patronised or lied to and I would have hated the truth. However my parents were a bit like JooleyJooleyJoos and we had hobgoblins who lived in a hole under the railway bridge! I always knew that there weren't really but the stories made walks interesting.
Everyone is different. We think as parents that it is entirely up to us, but it is really up to the DC-someone started a thread where she was doing the whole Santa thing with her 3 yr old, but the 3 yr old just loooked rather pityingly at her and said 'it is just a story mummy'!
If you are lucky your DCs match up to you and your ideas.
Mine asked lots of questions and I could tell that they didn't believe but wanted to and when they finally asked me directly I knew they were ready for the correct answer.

Joolyjoolyjoo - you have given me some lovely ideas! Thank you! you sound like a top mum x

We're not doing santa because we'd like Christ to come first in our Christmas celebrations. We're making sure we have all the 'magical' elements e.g. presents suddenly appearing, tree, big meal, family, carols, board games, complete silliness ... just not the man in red himself.

I posted about this on the Christmas thread and got some nice suggestions e.g. talking to DDs about St Nicholas and other countries' traditions in celebrating Christmas - in the course of which we would of course talk about Santa but in terms of "this is a tradition that lots of people in the UK follow". OP, I don't think you're being unreasonable (DH grew up without Santa and he still LOVES Christmas and its traditions) but I understand why your post might have put people's backs up a little bit since I don't really see people as properly lying when they tell their DC about Santa but more as them perpetuating a tradition of thinking. This might make me a hypocrite but I hope not ...

jooly - I hope when dd is 5 she still "believes" in santa, they don't get to be little for long do they? And in my book 5 is still very little.

Himalaya, The kids haven't grown out of having stockings in my house in fact DH and I have one too. My sisters family are the same.DD1 was here with her DH last year and I did them both a small stocking.

This question was answered in 1897 by the Editor of a New York newspaper who replied to a little girl who asked if Santa Claus were real. This link goes to the whole letter www.newseum.org/yesvirginia/, but here is an excerpt. This is a very good reply to anyone, regardless of age, faith or seasonal grumpiness:

"....Yes, VIRGINIA, there is a Santa Claus. He exists as certainly as love and generosity and devotion exist, and you know that they abound and give to your life its highest beauty and joy. Alas! how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus. It would be as dreary as if there were no VIRGINIAS. There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight. The eternal light with which childhood fills the world would be extinguished...."

I struggled with Santa as I'm a committed Christian and I didn't want the true meaning of Christmas to be lost on my DC but I also didn't want them to feel left out. Another consideration is other children - my aunt and uncle refused to lie about Santa and their children took great delight in telling other children! In the end I have included Santa into Christmas but when their questions get more difficult (my eldest is only 2 so all she wanted to know when she met Santa was how he got so fat ) I'm not going to lie. The Christmas story is the true magic of Christmas for me and I hope to pass that onto my children as a magic that will last forever.

Don't feel you have to do anything you don't want to just because of the pressure of society. We don't do this in our house (drives my MIL a bit mad but we agree to disagree on this). The one thing I would say is do tell your child not to spoil it for others - mine know he is not real but they also know their friends think he is and not to let them know.

Christmas is about the birth of Christ and the Nativity story not FC/Santa etc. (And yes I know it is based on a much older festival but if you don't believe in Christ don't celebrate Christmas call it something else).