to not want to perpetuate the Santa myth?

[WriterofDreams]

I know this might seem totally weird, and I am completely open to being told IABU, so do your worst!

My first baby is on the way and DH and I have been talking about the whole Santa thing. We're both a little ambivalent about it. I hate hate hate lying to children as I was lied to a lot as a child, not necessarily in a nasty way, more in a dismissive, "none of your business" sort of way. It made a big impression on me. I was a very intelligent and horrendously serious child (I see that now) but the Santa thing was something that hacked me off big time. From about the age of 4 Santa stopped making sense to me and I bombarded my mum with questions which were responded to with lie after lie after lie.

I know she was trying to keep the "magic" alive for me but it was truly baffling to me as a child and really annoyed me. For example, I thought, if Santa can get around the world in one night, why does it take 24 hours to get to Australia? Why doesn't he sell his technology to people who are in disaster areas and help them rather than giving out plastic crap to children? All this got me was "because he's magic." That just didn't wash at all with me, and Santa actually became this scary figure who had huge power but wouldn't share it with anyone else. The whole elves and toy workshop thing just confused me more, as I was aware toys were made by toy companies who sold them for profit. Yes, I know, I was a ridiculous child.

I had hugely mixed feelings when I discovered Santa wasn't real. This happened when I was about 6 but I didn't let on as I thought I wouldn't get presents if I didn't pretend to believe (another negative thing). On the one hand I felt relieved he wasn't real because it answered all my questions. On the other hand I felt annoyed at my mum for not just telling me he wasn't real when it was clear I was so hung up about the whole thing (I realise now she was trying to protect my older sister, who still believed).

I just know I'm going to have a hard time pretending to my LO that Santa exists. I hate that perplexed look on children's faces when you can see they know you're lying but they're trying to believe because they trust you and don't think you could lie to them :(
At the same time I know that not having the Santa thing would mark him out as totally different from other kids and could make life really hard for him, particularly if he feels left out.

Any opinions?

HI there

I have to agree with the OP. I don't see any point in lying to my DCs (5 and 3) and that includes Santa.

There are so many children around who don't have loving and supportive parents and who don't get meaningful presents at Christmas ( i knew one boy who was given socks!). The Santa myth helps them feel worthless and rejected by santa.

Santa free christmas can still be magical and real!

to encourage belief in the impossible encourages belief in the abstract and in tangible. 'Justice' might be a good example

I though Justice was an extension of fairness - which my 18 month demonstrates an understanding of not sure she remembers Santa from last year. In fact I'm sure Chimpanzees and Apes have been found to have a concept of fairness - I don't believe they have an understanding of Santa.

Terry Pratchett put it beautifully:

Susan: "You're saying that humans need fantasies to make life bearable?"

DEATH: "No. Humans need fantasies to be human. To be the place where the falling angel meets the rising ape."

Susan: "With toothfairies... hogfathers"

DEATH: "Yes. That's practice. You have to start out learning the little lies."

Susan: "So we can believe the big ones."

DEATH: "Yes ? justice, mercy, duty that sort of things."

Susan: "?They are not the same at all!"

DEATH: "You think so?! Then take the universe and grind it down into the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve and then show me one atom of justice, one molecule of mercy? and yet... you try to act as if there is some ideal order in the world as if there is some? some rightness in the universe by which it may be judged."

Susan: "But people have got to believe that! What's the point?"

DEATH: "You need to believe in things that aren't true. How else could they become?"

If you can quote Terry Pratchett you must be right.

DC have only come across idea of tooth fairy in Charlie and Lola so far - eldest 5 - but we were planning to go along with that one I believe. Obviously our logic is confused - I guess we hope the promise of money might rid DC of any upset cause by tooth loss but why the need for the fairy. Dam. Dam.

Hi OP
We're facing the same question this year as DS will be just 3 so aware of santa for the first time this year (they do Christmas at nursery in a big way!). We've decided tho, that we're not pretending Santa is real; for us Santa will be just a story - a fun one! - but just a story. Stocking presents will come from us.
We're both practising Christians and for us going to a childrens crib service late afternoon on Christmas eve is a magical experience in itself! I know lots of Christians do Santa, so we'll be unusual even among our friends, but I don't want to lie to DS about Santa, I'm concerned that Santa takes attention away from Jesus and I'm also concerned that santa is an encouragement to materialism - lots of people have asked DS already if he's done his list for santa of what he wants! We plan to tell him not to tell his friends that Santa is pretend as its a surprise for their Mummies and Daddies to tell them. I don't know if that'll work but we'll give it a go - we don't want to upset other people who are doing it.

Wonder if Jane Goodall has ever written about chimps having a sense of fairness or any form of behaviour suggestive of storytelling?

Oh, and at quoting TP being the ultimate proof of righteousness - I agree with you but am sure some people wouldn't. Poor misguided souls.

Actually while searching for that Hogfather quote I found a site where some Christians were discussing TP's approach to spirituality in very approving terms.

'The risk of not getting presents of course, if you don't believe, you don't receive everyone knows that.'

It never occurred to me! The girl next door told me when I was 6 yrs so I stayed awake to find out. I pretended to be asleep but next day told my parents -well whispered as I had younger siblings. It never crossed my mind that he would stop visiting-and he didn't.
As a teacher I would just say 'well I believe' which is true-I strongly believe in the idea of FC and think that all DCs(and adults) need magic in their lives.
(N.B. I wouldn't say 'I believe in FC'-I stick to the truth).
I do think the idea of all presents coming from him is mad-how on earth do they write thank you letters to Granny etc if they don't know they sent the present? I would refuse to take part in that-if I give a present it is from me!

mamatomany - that is dreadful!

In our house santa brings a stocking that has small things in. For everyone.

Dd also gets presents from different people and that is that.

When I got to about 13 I told my parents that I would prefer a stocking to a present from them. Not because there was more but when asked I always fancied lots of little things that I woudn't get for myself. In today's terms I guess I wanted nice make up and cleansing routine in comparison to an ipod touch. So my parents would spend the same on me of lots of things rather than one big present that the others got.

I really don't agree with all the presents being from fc. that is just a bit odd, I vividly remember boxing day being about writing thank you letters of the paper given!

When asked if Santa is real, I reply that he is a 'mythological being'. I reckon that once anyone is old enough to understand what a myth is they will accept that explanation, and no lies have been told.

I do however, object strongly to the 'good behaviour = more presents' line. In reality, otherwise neglectful families may go totally OTT at Christmas whereas, happy families may exchange modest presents. Surely the Santa concept should be one of unconditional love and pressies for all - even Mums and Dads.

I love the magic of it with my DS, but as I child I thought I didn't believe after 5 or 6 - but was excited "just in case", and would try to stay awake late to hear the bells etc...because you never know....

As for all the presents well no - the ones on his "list" come from Santa, the others from family.

St Nick existed as a charitable fellow who enjoyed surprising kind and good people with gifts if they left their shoes outside I believe? Could be wrong.

Let's be frank - it's a celebratory period when kids are hysterical, it's one way of keeping the kids on a behavioural track, and also getting them to sleep on time and for a set period of time - a sanity saver!

I agree other people enjoy the magic so you wouldn't want your child spoiling it for them...but if you choose to go with Santa then describe him as a magical mystical figure....I often begin conversations on God with "many people believe..."

On an aside, we now live in Switzerland, and the kids here believe in the Christmas Angel who comes on the 24th so they get their presents in the evening...all his Swiss German friends believe in this.

My son readily accepts this ON TOP of Santa, so know is looking forward to a double present fest...we are splitting the gifts over two days.

Agree people who say ALL the presents are from FC including those from relatives are insane.

ds has a stocking from FC, and some of the big presents under the tree. Others are from Mummy and Daddy (have to be v. careful re. wrapping paper) and obviously stuff from Grandparents, Aunts and Uncles is from them and they are thanked appropriately. Same when I was little, although we only had FC presents at home, presents from relatives were handed out when we went to see them on (grand tour of relatives between Christmas and New Year so we always had a very Merry extended Christmas which was fab). My (late) Gran, mother and stepmother all have birthdays between Christmas and New Year so it was always a long series of celebrations.

Wonder if Jane Goodall has ever written about chimps having a sense of fairness or any form of behaviour suggestive of storytelling?

No idea about the story telling but know about the fairness from article in New Scientist - can not find that link but think this the same thing.

scienceblogs.com/primatediaries/2010/04/chimpanzees_prefer_fair_play_o.php

According to research due to be published in the journal Animal Behaviour, fairness is not only essential to the human social contract, it also plays an important role in the lives of nonhuman primates more generally. Sarah F. Brosnan and colleagues conducted a series of behavioral tests with a colony of chimpanzees ...in order to find out how they would respond when faced with an unfair distribution of resources. A previous study in the journal Nature by Brosnan and Frans de Waal found that capuchin monkeys would refuse a food item when they saw that another member of their group had received a more desired item at the same time. Some individuals not only rejected the food, they even threw it back into the researchers face. The monkeys seemed to recognize that something was unfair and they responded accordingly.

Perhaps I should worry that my 18 month old is behaving like a capuchin monkey.

I asked DH about the Tooth fairy - apparently it is different because the tooth fairy is real it is also a self limiting myth ie once they lose their teeth that is it we can not carry it on to long.

I think this is his attempt to perpetuate the myth that we are rational creature making logical decisions. Rather than admit that like op we disliked carrying on the pretense of Sanat past a certain point for our parents benefit.

ds worked out the Tooth Fairy wasn't strictly true but still insists we wait until he's asleep to swap the tooth for money, leaving a sprinkling of fairy dust (thanks, dh, for starting that one...). AND wrote a long letter for the TF demanding answers to questions 'because I wanted to know what you thought, Mummy'.

DS worked out the tooth fairy easily because he was quite old when he lost his first tooth and he said 'our tooth fairy is a bit mean so it must be you!'
DCs do their own thing regardless of parents anyway. I think that if mine had insisted on 'the truth' I would have believed anyway because one of my favourite books was all about Christmas customs. There have been threads on here where 3 yr olds have refused to believe it was anything other than a story-despite their parents best efforts!

i really don't see the problem, writer. i think you are bothered about your parents lying to you when you questioned the santa thing, tbh. so don't lie when your child twigs it... surely that's all there is to it? did you hate the idea of santa before you twigged it? surely if your parents had said 'well, yes, but it's a lovely story isn't it and the little kids enjoy it so much...' you'd be a perfectly normal person now?

I was really upset when a neighbour's child told DD aged 6 that neither Father Christmas nor the tooth fairy existed. Most older children like the responsibility of being 'in on the secret' and play along with it. Younger children don't really understand that however. You will be in a tiny minority for not playing along with the tradition even half heartedly. When I told a few other mothers at the time, some were worried that DD would ruin their own carefully constructed myths. So just take care that your DC isn't seen as a killjoy and respects other people's beliefs , however ridiculous that might sound as it is not a religious belief.

Every year there is a thread like this and it always makes me sad. Sad because my parents told me outrageous "lies" when I was a child and I loved them for it- my dad fought trolls for a living, and my "poorly" goldfish would often go to the vets, stay a week, have an operation and come back a bit smaller/ paler- all part of his illness. There were many many more. I loved the whole magical feelings around Christmas, and I tried to believe in Santa for about 2 years after an older girl tried to tell me he wasn't real. It was her I resented, rather than my parents. She was the one who tried to take the magic away.

Of course, as I got older I realised that many of the things my parents had told me were not strictly true, but I understood why they had done it- to make me happy. And it did make me happy, and I am still glad they were this way. I had a fun, happy and magical childhood.

I do similar with my children. I never tell them there are no monsters etc. Of course there are- we all face monsters in our life. But we have strategies for dealing with them . I do the Santa thing most enthusiastically. DD1 is 6 now and starting to question- she was asking today how Santa gets round the world in such a short time, so we had a little chat about the possibilty of time travel, Einsteins theorem and the speed of light (so at least if I am to disapproved of for my lying, she got a science lesson too)

One of my most happy moments was when I went to pick dd2 up from nursery and was called over to see the big frieze they had done for the wall. There was a picture of each child with a speech bubble and the caption was "I love my mum because.." There were lots of because she looks after me/ cooks my favourite dinners/ gives me a hug. My dd was there with a huge grin and the words "She has magic powers" in her speech bubble. Am I worried that she will stop loving me when she finds out I don't actually have magic powers. No! Because in some ways I do

Just wait until baby is here and so many ideas you have will fall away! Believing in Santa can be magical for young kids depending on how you approach it and my little ones love the Santa thing but i agree in not using Santa in a threatening way. Give Santa a chance! You need to watch miracle
On 34th street and the Santa claus and there are so many lovely Santa books for kids... It's part of the magic and you can always go' down the 'st Nicholas' route when they get a bit older

Joolyjoolyjoo writes a fantastic reply above - listen to her!

Joolyjoolyjoo that's all just so lovely...

I was like you Joolyjooleyjoo and I was cross with the girl who told me-I still know her and she doesn't remember!
My parents were great at magic and I can only think that those who felt 'lied' to had parents who didn't do it well! I know for certain that it must be fun at Jooleyjooleyjoo's house at Christmas and having a mum with magic powers beats one who does the cleaning!
Really thinking that reindeer were on my roof was a fantastic feeling that stays with you for life.

Anyone who is being all worthy should read Jooleyjoolyjoos post and at least think about it. (there is nothing materialistic in magic).

An incident today was kind of relevant. Since my children were born we have wealked the dogs in the same country park. There is a tree with a little "door" A hoobit lives in this tree, and he speaks to the dc when they knock his door if there is noone else about (if there are other people around he doesn't speak because it is too embarassing because he is shy, and nooone knows he is there bar us)

Today we went round the park and my dd1 (6) who is now usually at school was there. She wanted to knock on his door. I know she knows now that it is me who does the voice, so i intimated as much, but she begged to do it- she still wants me to do it for her, even though she knows I've "lied". I think this is because she recognises the whole thing as something that I did to make her happy as a little child, and she still wants me to do it for her, even although she knows the truth, as it still makes her happy. So I did, and she had a nice long discussion with Mr Hobbit about what they'd both been up to this week.

To me (and I probably take it to extremes) there is such a short time in a child's life where there is a magical dimension, where there IS magic in the world. They only have a few years before the reality of this sometimes soulless world takes over, so I want them to enjoy that short time, that's all.

ds worked out the Tooth Fairy wasn't strictly true but still insists we wait until he's asleep to swap the tooth for money, leaving a sprinkling of fairy dust (thanks, dh, for starting that one...). AND wrote a long letter for the TF demanding answers to questions 'because I wanted to know what you thought, Mummy'.

edam - you make a compelling argument but I have had to many conversations with parents here who spend a fortune or real reindeer poo, reindeer paw markers, lay fake snow and make reindeer tracks for tween-agers not to have concerns about the whole Santa myth.

Joolyjoolyjoo - I think this is a one mans meat is another mans poison thing. I hate the 'outrageous lies' when adults did it to me as a child and DH says the same. We felt patronized and resented playing along with the adult delusions and we would have preferred the truth and the acknowledgement we were not stupid and were respected.

Does not mean we did not have imaginations just that we were more literal and our imaginations ran along different lines. Our eldest seems to have similar inclinations - younger two not sure of yet. We have the view that childhood is a time of excited exploration when DC learn about the world round them and that is the magic not some mythical state of being/innocence that DC must be kept in.

OP if you decide when the time comes that you do not want to do Santa - Christmas will still be magical - for us it is special fun family time that the DC love and look forward to. If you change you mind and do it - the myth will not harm them especially if you have some common sense about it.