Support group for those affected by someone else's drinking thread 5

[pointythings]

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/alcohol_support/5473399-support-group-for-those-affected-by-someone-elses-drinking-thread-4?page=5

A new thread, because the old one is full - link to previous thread above.

These threads are a safe place for anyone who has an alcoholic in their lives. You can ask for help, you can vent, you can say whatever you need to without judgement. We will listen and support you.

@Littlewhitedaisy I completely and utterly understand that the future looks scary for you right now no matter what you do. However, there is a little list of facts that you would do well to bear in mind when working on a decision:

• Your husband hasn't admitted he is an alcoholic. That means he is not going to stop. And that means he is going to get worse - in terms of drinking, health and behaviour. You can do nothing to prevent this.
• The children of addicts are at far higher risk of becoming addicts themselves. Not living full time with an addict reduces that risk, even if they are having overnight contact - and do you really think he will do that?
• Life without an addict in the house is blissful. Absolutely, completely bloody blissful. No walking on eggshells, no wondering about the levels in bottles, no aggressive drunken behaviour. You will be in control of your household and what that will bring you is peace.
• You do not have to support him. He is choosing self destruction - he cannot demand that you join him.
• He is an abusive man.

Keep engaging with social services. Keep thinking about what life would look like if he suddenly disappeared into thin air. You will find your courage - it takes time. It took me almost 7 years.

Of course he's drinking at the pub. NO alcoholic could stay T total sat in a pub for hours!

So you can't seperate without having to sell the house because he wouldn't leave.

Then all you can do is withdraw emotionally, do all you can to help your children (are they old enough to have the truth explained to them?), PROTECT YOUR FINANCES (open a seperate account and squirrel funds to it that he can't access?) and look after yourself.

If he gets nasty/aggressive call 999.
If he drink drives (or you suspect it) call 101.
Don't engage in any conversations about his drinking or health. Tell him it's his life so he can crack on with whatever.

He'll either get his act together himself, great, or he'll die and you'll all get some peace even while grieving.

Sorry to be so blunt but I went through this for several years with my DH and TBH when he died last year I felt relief - for both of us. I was afraid he'd lose it mentally rather than die.

Thank you everyone. Kick up the bum needed 😬.

I know he must be drinking, he just doesn’t smell or seem like it, so it’s either not as much or a different type of alcohol.
I think he’s processing it all and waiting for me to stop having a tantrum about it then he thinks it will all go back to normal.
My youngest daughter is 10. She just wants dad at home, but then tells me how much she loves me and that I’m her favourite person in the world and her best friend. She’s a quiet, intelligent watcher, so I know she’s taking it all in and that’s exactly what I hate about what’s happening. Eldest dd -almost 18. Wants him to leave, sees exactly what he’s like. Middle dd- 15, severely disabled, non verbal, not aware of anything at all.
At the bottom of everything is their wellbeing, happiness, what they see, hear, remember and look back on. And I will protect that always, which makes it easier.
As far as my house is concerned I will do my best to take it on. I think 🤔 f it came to it a court would allow me to stay here because of my daughters needs. I’d just have to find a way financially.
I do imagine the peace and stability of it just being me and the girls. I think I’ve probably just normalised too much for too long that I’ve forgotten how it should be.
Is it abuse? Because of the alcohol or because of other things? I think I’m just opening my eyes and trying to work it out in my head.

@Littlewhitedaisy

What on earth is the way forward?

I'm afraid that the only way forward is to find the way out. You cannot go on like this, nor can your DDs. DD1 is ready for it and DD3 will adjust. DD2 may not realize what change has taken place, but I believe she will sense the peace and calm when all is said and done.

I think what you need to do now is see a solicitor. It doesn't mean you have to 'do anything'. But you need to get educated on what divorce may mean to you. Put together a 'snapshot' of family income/outgo and assets and take that with you. Also write up a list of questions to be answered (especially wrt the house and your DD's needs). If you can, take someone you trust with you to act as a second set of ears or a 'prompter' if you forget anything.They can also take notes. I've done that for 2 friends and it was helpful to them.

Starting now, keep quiet. Don't tell him you're seeing a solicitor or that you're contemplating divorce. Let him think it's all status quo. Your secrecy is your weapon for now. Let him be lulled into a sense of security. Get educated and make a plan. Then execute it.

As far as him going to the pub and not drinking, well lovely, if you believe that then I have a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you. He may have reined his drinking in a bit or let the worst wear off before he comes home so he appears sober, but I don't believe for a moment that he's teetotal. FWIW my DH is the very best 'sober drunk' I've ever seen. He can be completely blotto and still pull himself together if he needs to and appear almost completely sober. It's actually pretty amazing. But as I said, leave that for now. Your priority is to get educated and get out.

@AcrossthePond55 , thank you for that practical advice, believe me, I’m listening.
And a very big thank you for making me laugh aloud for the first time in days, I’d forgotten how good that feels. Unfortunately I can’t afford the bridge, so I’d best just listen 😂🤦🏻‍♀️😂

If you can find the strength to keep coming here and posting when you start doubting yourself, we'll be there with the tough love/slap with a giant wet fish/firm but supportive words (whichever you would like).

All or any! The world works in strange ways, I will be glad of the strength I will find here and in my daughters.

Sigh. OK then. I'll put the bridge back in the closet until another patsy dear friend comes along who might want it.

And yes as @pointythings says, keep posting. We're here for you, come what may.

@Littlewhitedaisy you have brought up the topic of abuse, and I don’t want to suggest things that might not be there, but I would suggest you take a look at ’Why does he do that?’ By Lundy Bancroft. It is not an easy read, but it may reasonate and help you in your thought process. ( it is available on Kindle so you can be discrete).

Wise words from @pointythings and @AcrossthePond55

You have 3 girls

your youngest is a little older then my dd. She was upset obv when we split but she saw /reliesed within a few weeks /month that life was so much better now

she started to see/hear/smell dh booze and reliese that he lies and won’t change

eldest understands a lot more

middle will be happy as you will be happier and she will feel the mood rise

Hope everyone is having a peaceful day. Dh was out yesterday from 12- 11, returning after I’d gone to bed. He had Ben drinking, but not too drunk. Came to wish me goodnight (don’t know why), this morning an open bottle of wine with just a bit out of it. Got up at 10.30, heard the top coming off the wine bottle by 11.15 and some more gone from it. Out by 12, returned with the car, I could see and smell he’s been drinking and has gone to watch the football. We talked a little, he thinks/ claims I’ve says he hurts the children, I’ve told him I’ve never said that and never would because he doesn’t and he loves them, but the concern is around that he drinks and wh that’s exposed them too. He can’t and won’t see it, and says he’s out having a good laugh, seeing friends and enjoying himself, and there’s nothing wrong with that. I repeated that he’s clearly choosing that over me and family life, but he just can’t see the problem. Thinks I’m just going to suck it up.
My heart feels much more settled and I am very sure he’s never going to change, the more he shows this side of him the easier it is in many ways. The man I loved has gone really, he’s changed so much that the onl thing that matters really is spending time at the pub, watching sport and being with others who drink and make him laugh.
So, not an easy road ahead and I’ve no doubt he’ll try to make it a difficult for me as he can and make me out to be controlling, making things up and generally the cause of every thing. I’m not bothered by that, I just want him gone and as little to do with him as possible. It’s funny, but I just don’t recognise him anymore, he even looks different facially and in his expressions, he’s become a stranger that I would be polite to but avoid 😬

@Littlewhitedaisy I feel the strength and resolution coming through. That's a huge change. You will get through this and we will be there for you.

Well done @Littlewhitedaisy sounds like you have made a decision

next time he drinks and drives. Report him

@Littlewhitedaisy

We talked a little, he thinks/ claims I’ve says he hurts the children .......Thinks I’m just going to suck it up.

Remember, go stealth. Let him think what he wants. And for now, let the issues around his drinking go unless it's an issue of immediate physical safety or financial security. He isn't and won't truly hear a word you say, so save your breath to cool your porridge. Don't get drawn in to useless arguments with a drunk, you'll never win. Trust me! I have been (and still am) there with esDH (estranged DH). Trying to talk sense to him or to justify my feelings is the biggest exercise in futility there is. And he manages to turn everything around and make it all about my faults and my refusal to 'see the truth'. So remember; "Never wrestle a pig. You both get muddy and the pig enjoys it". They 'enjoy' it because it simply solidifies in their minds how wrong are and what a victim they are.

My heart feels much more settled and I am very sure he’s never going to change, the more he shows this side of him the easier it is in many ways. The man I loved has gone really..........not an easy road ahead and I’ve no doubt he’ll try to make it a difficult......make me out to be controlling, making things up and generally the cause of every thing......I just want him gone.

Yes, you are right. He will never change. And the man you love is long gone. So again you need to keep quiet until you get your plans ready to execute. No, it won't be an easy road. And yes, he will get ugly. But what's worth having is worth the fight, and the rocky road to achieve it. And yes, he will get ugly once you start down that road. So when he does remember "Those that matter don't mind and those that mind don't matter". The people who love you will know the truth. And the rest can go to hell.

@Littlewhitedaisyyou have come such a long way already. Good for you!!
@Hellodarknes55just sending you best wishes xxxx

I have been in a very similar position @Littlewhitedaisy as have others here, and the realisation that you're going to have to do it all alone feels terrifying. It won't be easy but think how much easier your home life will be when you aren't having constant pointless, wearing arguments with an illogical, unreasonable drunk. Even if you have to move house to do it (and hopefully you won't), the peace will be worth it. Believe me.

Massive hugs @Littlewhitedaisy. I know exactly what you mean by even looking different facially/ with expressions. My Ex really changed beyond recognition once the spiral took hold. I always trying to explain to people that he looked like an addict now; his face had even changed.

I was no contact for six months and I spent a lot of time trying to grieve who he was and who we were. By the time we separated his personalitt had changed beyond all recognition. Our happy times together and him normal, or even just functional alcoholic, seems like a lifetime ago.

I was back in contact a couple of weeks ago (phone only) after six months no contact and it was shocking how much he has deteriorated - he kind of weirdly monologues now, such an odd style of conversation, really kind of grandiose as well.

I think once the mental decline has started they never come back

Checking in because I am having an unexpected ‘really bloody sad’ day. I can’t bear that addiction has stripped Ex of everything. It is such a waste of his life and I hate the utter powerlessness to love/ have loved an addict and not be able to change the course of events.

Ex will never see his children again (unless he lives long enough that as older teens they will independently seek to reconnect with him). That is such a waste. He was a really active and involved Dad, even in functional alcoholism.

Wails “it’s not fair”.

@Nogoodusername

I'm sorry you're having a 'blue day'. I had one a couple of days ago. It's hard when the emotional weight sits heavy on your shoulder and you can't banish it. But it will pass, it always does. Give it time and give yourself grace. You'll get through it and the sun will shine again.

As I've said before, I love DH and will likely love him til the day I die. He was a wonderful husband and a loving father, once upon a time. But I am powerless to change him, so are you with your ex. But we have changed ourselves and that's something to be proud of. We have a right to grieve the men they were. We just can't let it take over our lives.

My DH will never see our (adult) DSs again either. They have both gone NC and tbh I think so much water has passed under that particular bridge that even if DH were to magically get sober neither of them would reconsider. It's sad since at one time he was a wonderful dad, but I try to remember that he brought it on himself. And that my sons are both wonderful men I can be so proud of and I will respect their decisions.

Weather here is cold and cloudy, unusual for California! I hope the weather is better where you are. Try to get out and breathe in the air. I've found that when the blues settle on you, it really helps to get outside, even if all you do is sit in your garden or on your front steps for a little bit.

need your help.
Dh is a functioning alcoholic.
He has been a heavy drinker as long as I've known him (late teens for me, early 20s for him) but so was I although he could certainly put more away than I could before falling asleep.
It didn't occur to me then that he couldn't/wouldn't stop when we had kids, but he didn't. Our eldest is nearly 10 now. The arguments about drinking have been cyclical since I had her and his drinking is now as high as ever. He tends to have 2-3 bottles of wine in a 'session' and gets sort of manicly energetic in these sessions- cleaning, clear outs, DIY projects.
In between sessions he is very depressed. He has diagnosed ADHD (before I met him) and anxiety (not sure when but earlier in the marriage, prekids, he had a sort of mini breakdown and was off work for a couple of months. His current anxious/depressed 'status' with the GP dates from then. He's on propranolol and mirtazipine for the anxiety but unmedicated for ADHD.
Over the past 18 months, he's begun having accidents in his late night binges- last Jan fell down the stairs and put his head through the glass front door. About a year later went into our 2 yo in the night to comfort her (I didn't wake), fell while holding her and cracked his head open on the side of the cot. Huge gash. Miraculously didn't hurt her.
A month or two ago just fell full length into the bathtub while going to the loo in the night shortly after putting himself to bed shitfaced. I had to go and help him up. He was ridiculously drunk.
After each of these, I talked about not being able to live with this and he needed to stop drinking. He didn't. He did a while each time. I can't remember why I didn't leave or persist in getting him to leave, except that things just returned to the status quo. Everything feels so muddled in my head.
Yesterday we had people over for a bbq and had the wine open soon after midday. I stopped when they left around 5pm, he didn't. At about 9 as I was putting the kids to bed he started mowing the lawn. He stopped before I came down so I just hid from him, watching telly, waiting for him to go to bed so I could check how much he'd had, check the kitchen etc and secure the house .
When it got too late for me I ventured out and found him rooting around the toybox. He was chucking things out so I asked him to stop and retrieved some things from the bin. He reacted sulkily but didn't go for a row, which was nice. We both got to bed about midnight.
I feel so tired of it all today. Came home from work early to tell him I was taking the kids to my mums. Just to get away, I just don't want to be on edge anymore.
He doesn't want me to go. Asked what it would take for me to stay. Acknowledged he has a problem and said he thinks I'm right after I told him I don't think he can drink at all because he can't do it responsibly.
First thing he asked was if I love him.
I suggested he go back with his parents when they come to visit this weekend, he agreed it was a good idea. He said he will contact the GP.
I don't know what to do now. I'm going to go to my mums tonight- then what?

I do believe his problem is uncontrolled ADHD and that he uses alcohol to medicate. I also believe the alcohol makes it worse. The question is, should I stay here and try to go through paths to recovery with him? Or stay away? Or what??

Hi @TotHappy and welcome to this thread.

I’m sorry to hear everything you have been going through.

There is a very high correlation between ADHD and addiction. My Ex also has ADHD and certainly used alcohol and drugs to self medicate/ numb his symptoms. He was medicated for a while but he abused the stimulant medication so has been unmediated ever since. Last time I heard he was considering non stimulants, but given how erratically he takes his anti depressants, I can’t imagine there is much use.

Regardless of the cause though, living with someone in active addiction is hellish. A psychiatrist once also told Ex that not everyone who has ADHD is an addict so it is possible to have ADHD and be sober! It’s your life too, and your children, and you are allowed to live a peaceful and calm life where you are not treading on eggshells. Growing up around an addict can be very damaging for children (I am also the child of an alcoholic).

You really need some support for you - to help you work through what you are and aren’t prepared to put up with for your life. Some people on here have found Al Anon really helpful, but it can depend on the local group
itself and some of them do definitely seem like they push spouses to stay together out of the belief that the addict is most likely
to recover in a stable family environment. I found SMART friends and family (online meetings, secular approach, not 12 step) more helpful. It helped me to see that I could not love Ex better (there would be no addicts if all it took was love and a relationship!) and he wasn’t prepared to do the hard work of sobriety. I wanted him to give up the alcohol (and drugs as he also abused coccaine at times) more than he wanted to.

My Ex was a functional alcoholic but it is often only ever an illness or shock or major event away from disfunctional. Ex is now utterly disfunctional and his personality has changed and his mental capacity is shocking.

Your DH should definitely ask for a referral to your local drug and alcohol support services. But ultimately, you cannot do this for him.

you didn’t cause it. You cannot control or cure it. The only choices you have are what your life looks like. I did have to split up with Ex and I was a shell of myself by the time I did - anxious all the time about his moods, constantly defending myself or justifying as an alcoholic needs to find someone or something to blame for their continued drinking, devastated with every binge or relapse.

Thank you for your response to my screed! Sorry for the length, I'm still in a shocked state from the latest and struggling to process.
Can I ask if when you left you had young children? One of the things that's kept me there is my unwillingness for him to have them alone overnight.

@TotHappy welcome to the thread, and I second absolutely everything that @Nogoodusername has said. I don't think it would be a bad idea for you to take the kids and be with your mum for a while. It will be a powerful reminder of what 'normal' looks like (because you lose sight of that when you're in the middle of the chaos that is life with an addict). It will also give your children a break from him and give you space to think. Lastly, it will make it clear to him that his choices (and every time he drinks, that first drink is a choice!) have consequences. Addicts do not change if there are no consequences for their behaviour.

Ultimately the key thing here is for you to learn to put yourself and your DC first. See everything you do through the lens of what is best of them, what is best for you and then he can come a very, very distant third. Don't let him turn on the woe is me/play the victim/do the 'oh I need your help to change' act. You're dealing with a 20 year habit here and he has a lot of hard work to do.

The underlying ADHD is a huge issue - ADHD services are massively overstretched, and even if he can get an assessment through Right to Choose, your husband will need to be sober and he will need to find a GP who is willing to take on shared care in terms of his medication. ADHD meds are controlled substances, so this is not easy. And without sobriety, no service will touch him.

Hi @TotHappy - My Ex had children with his first wife and yes she left him when they were young. Eventually, once it became clear he was still drinking during his contact time, she first stopped overnights and required breathalysers before unsupervised contact, when she began to suspect that he was drinking during contact time after the negative breathalyser she required supervised contact with breathalysers. Eventually she removed contact altogether (he became very mentally unstable once he started spiralling and the children had started to report worries and anxiety at school, so social services got involved). At that point, said she would not let him see the children again until he had been sober for a months - I think there are tests that the DVLA do that can prove if you have drank in the proceeding month. Ex’s options were either to accept it and get sober (didn’t) or apply for a child arrangements order (didn’t - too much effort)