Occupation order hearing next week, panicking

[mamacat612]

Can anyone tell me what my chances are or have any experience of this?

I am divorcing my husband, we have one child. I left the family home with our child to go live with family members due to his angry outbursts.

I asked him within a few weeks to please move out of the home and allow myself and our child to move back in. This is for stability for our child. He refused and said he has no where else to go. This is partially true, we moved to an area to be close to my family when we had our child and his parents and family members do live hours away, I don’t dispute this.

I applied for an occupation order on advice.

He is saying if he is forced to leave the home, that he will have no choice but to move back to parents which means loosing his job, or be homeless.

We both earn similar amounts, neither of us can afford a private rental and paying half the mortgage which I have accepted in my statement.

He is saying in his statement that I can get housing benefit and rent with our child and has done a calculation! Or live with family members but I want our child to be back in the family home. My family members can’t accomodate us long term and it’s crapped as we are in a flat.

He has started financial proceedings for the divorce as we haven’t been able to agree with either the sale of the house or buying each other out.

If I am to move back in I can’t afford the mortgage alone and would need him to still pay his half.

I don’t have any concrete evidence of his angry outbursts other than my statement, no other witnesses. But I can’t move back in and live with him until this is all sorted, his behaviour scares me.

For his part he says we did argue at the end of the relationship, but he denies any angry outbursts or intimidating behaviour.

We are both self representing and there will be a legal advisor at the hearing to ask questions.

Like I said before, the courts are well aware of all the angles the OP will try.
As she is Breastfeeding I assume the child us under 2. All this going on about him shouting in front of the child. !! Its not like the kid is taking notes. Its too young to remember.
Reading through all her replies she constantly harps on about the child. She's given up trying to convince us that throwing washing is DA but is now weaponising the child.

Sorry but how is throwing things around not DA? Women’s aid have told me it is, and I think they are better placed than anyone here to speak on that matter.

I don’t have a solicitor now but I did the free hour early on when he was initially refusing to move out, and they are the ones who told me an occupation order was an option?

My mind is blown with how many people are taking my husbands side here, when myself and my child are doing nothing wrong?

What was I supposed to do, wait until he got physical and hurt one of us?

I get that it’s not a nice situation for anyone, I acknowledge it’s going to be difficult for him if he has to move out but the situation is far worse for our child who is living out of a suitcase currently!

I didn’t want to even come back to this thread because all I came here for was support maybe to see if anyone else had managed to obtain an occupation order in similar circumstances but I’ve been torn apart.

I get that it’s not a nice situation for anyone, I acknowledge it’s going to be difficult for him if he has to move out but the situation is far worse for our child who is living out of a suitcase currently!

It's about the numbers adding up OP.

You want a man who's in a job you think isn't great to fund 50% of the mortgage for a potentially open ended period of time until you recover your deposit, his own housing expenses and presumably carry on with the maintenance and 50% of childcare too. Without the access to top up benefits that a primary carer has (although if you'd be willing to forego the maintenance and childcare payments if it meant he was more likely to move out, maybe that's worth discussing).

If he can't pay for that then you're not going to get it, regardless of whether this means your DC ends up worse off than him or not. If you did get the occupation order and he then had to house himself elsewhere, how long do you realistically think he'd be paying the mortgage for?

IF taken a face value your account of his behaviour is accurate then it is unacceptable.
But your account throughout this thread is inconsistant in many aspects and your behaviour towards him as you've stated it on here IS abusive (stalking his movements via ring doorbell and being angry that this source of infomation has been removed).
It is likely that BOTH of you are acting in unacceptable ways possibly meeting the threshold for abuse, but it is clear from this thread that YOU are a big part of the part of this problem.

The victim here is your child, who is never going to have a normal and happy childhood unless the pair of you grow up!

Your OP asks "I don’t have any concrete evidence of his angry outbursts other than my statement, no other witnesses."

The court will apply the balance of harm test.
Based on what you have said and in the absence of police, GP, witness statements.

It seems that if your DH will lose his job if he has to leave the home (and thus not be able to support his daughter) the balance swings in his favour.

I think you’re confused,

firstly a free session with a solicitor said it maybe an option, not it was as they’d went through it fully

secondly it is not about taking sides, it’s about whay will happen in court.

It’s not about anyone doing something wrong, it’s about will you win, and the answer is no, you will fail,there is no way a judge will grant, no way at all

you cannot claim abuse on exit of a marriage for the first time, with no evidence and only when attempting to do something hugely damaging ri your ex.

You clearly have a very poor understanding of child development.

You are clearly not going to listen to any advice and unfortunately you come across as unbelievable.
You are really reached for abuse accusations. You are weaponising the child. You sound very immature and I do advise you not to gild the lily. Throwing things around the house namely washing. Come on, grow up.

And you seem unable to understand what’s being said, the poster is refering to a witness in court not developmental impact

A small child won’t care about living out of a suitcase

at breastfeeding age they won’t barely notice

they will notice a stressed or angry mother. You are adding layers of stress to your life by fixating on the impossible

So if the priority is your child not sleeping out of a suitcase, why not let them stay in the property with your husband when he’s there or you when your husband isn’t there?

Problem solved?

This, above, is exactly my thoughts. Rather than put the child through difficulties.

OP has stated firmly that she'd rather be homeless than live in the house with him. I find that totally ridiculous and shows nil understanding of sleeping on the streets.

Why would I abandon my child to live with an aggressive man…

Honestly if I hadn’t of left and something had happened bad, everyone would be jumping on me for leaving my child in danger and not leaving sooner

A solicitor is not going to be able to tell you what you will or won’t be likely to get, in the space of an hour.

Of course you were told it was an option - that is quite normal. Without the necessary information at hand, a solicitor is not in the position to rule anything out or in. That requires time to gather and review. ‘It’s an option’ means ‘this is something we can look into to see if it would be appropriate for this situation’. It doesn’t mean ‘you’ll get an occupation order, no problem’.

What WA considers abusive it not necessarily the same as what the judge will consider abusive within the context of marital breakdown and divorce.

It is highly, highly unlikely that you are going to get what you are asking for here.

Dearest

No one is saying that you are necessarily wrong for leaving

you are not however on the streets

you are also not entitled to throw your husband out of your home

just because you left because you felt threatened doesn’t mean that normal lawful processes no longer apply

this is why many women wait till the “ have their ducks in a row” before leaving or they work with a domestic abuse charity to get themselves safely housed

you have had lots of advice

the way you have presented the abuse isn’t convincing which is why people say you could move back into the shared family home

if that is too much you don’t have to

but you still can’t expect him to leave and lose his job or live out of a car

it’s time to grow up. You are now a single mum with responsibilities to a child and you need to move into what’s the best I can do in the circumstances I am in , which isn’t cloud cookoo land

So, given the feedback and advice you’ve more received, what’s your plan to get out of this situation ASAP?

So lets assume @mamacat612 that your fears for your and your DC's safety are warranted and that you have every right to ask the courts to grant you an occupation order this week. You have Plan A should this be granted that goes like this (if I've understood your posts correctly):

1. you & your DC get to move back into the house and enlist your family members in fixing it up in order to put it on the market (something that will take an indeterminate amount of time)
2. your husband finds somewhere else to live, continues his work and has care of your DC for at least some part of this time
3. you and your husband continue splitting the mortgage and the costs of renovation 50/50%
4. the house is eventually put on the market and sold at the highest price
5. you split the assets with your husband and everyone lives happily ever after

Since you are focused on what is going to be the best thing for your child, you surely must have a back-up Plan B should any part of this Plan A not materialise. Can I ask you to consider what you would do if:

1. the court does not grant you the occupation order for whatever reason?
2. the court does grant you the occupation order, but sets a date by which the house has to be sold that is not (in your opinion) long enough to fix up the house to sell at the price you want?
3. your husband finds somewhere to live that is near his family, which means he must give up his current job and cannot immediately find another, which means that he is unable to contribute to the mortgage or share custody of your child?

There are probably other scenarios that are possible/probable in your situation and if I were you, I'd make sure that I had contingency plans for how to deal with each and every one of them. Do you? Or are you just sticking your head in the sand believing that nothing besides Plan A will conceivably happen?

OP this thread is not helpful.

With a breast feeding baby you do have a chance of being granted the order whilst the house is being sold.

If you are sensible & factual about what you want you are more likely to get that. Be calm & clear on what you are asking - don't get into long emotional debates on the rights & wrongs & details of the whole relationship.

If you request to live in the home on the understanding that it immediately goes on sale for a quick sale - so no mucking around with renovations then that is reasonable & potentially possible given that you are breastfeeding a baby.

If you want renovations & to maximize financial gain before selling the property then you are not going to get the order.

Get the non-mol as that's more important for safety & is easier to be granted & get the divorce finalized & the house sold as quickly as possible so you can get yourself away from it.

No she doesn’t, the fact she’s breastfeeding does not remotely give her a chance,

don’t make stuff up to try to make her feel it will be ok, as it won’t be, at least take the time ti educate yourself in the criteria the judge will use,

So what’s your plan?

if you get the order, in the one in a million chance the judge ignores the legal criteria he is legally bound to go by, your husband will lose his job and won’t pay half the mortgage, how will you pay this?

I do know a fair bit & fully aware of the 'criteria' & have supported many women with both occupation & non molestation orders.

If women's aid write a letter to say you are the victim of domestic abuse you get legal aid for legal representation, not just the free hour. Maybe you should go back to Women's Aid and ask about it.

You said;

“I assume the child us under 2. All this going on about him shouting in front of the child. !! It’s not like the kid is taking notes. It’s too young to remember.”

Thus I pointed out that you clearly don’t understand child development.

You are suggesting she leaves her child with a father prone to aggressive outbursts and causing the child unnecessary separation anxiety for his/her mother??

This thread is baffling to me.

Yes there is a she said/he said element and yes, the occupation order is unlikely but she has said she is scared. He was aggressive. He aggressively snatched the child out of her arms. That’s dysregulated anger with a child which is traumatic for the child yet alone the mother (who is likely smaller and weaker) and everyone is pulling the OP to shreds. She’s created peace and safety for her child. She still pays half the mortgage despite him living (or not) there.

The child should come first. Always.

Yep.

You did the right thing. You got out. Snatching your child out of your arms in dysregulated anger is abusive and frightening for your child. So you were right to leave.

Sadly, you probably don’t have enough for an occupation order. I hope we are all wrong in that.

I do think you need to cut your losses and just get the house sold so you can move on quickly. Once you are settled it will still be hard to co-parent but you’ll have your own space. Focus on the goal and just get it done. Money can be re-made and your peace and wellbeing are key to your child.

Sadly the protective parent (usually the mother) gets a hard time. I don’t think protections for children during divorce are anywhere near good enough.

Hang in there and I think what you can take from this thread is to go into court;

• calm
• clear
• have a clear chronology and examples of key behaviours with any evidence.
• don’t get emotional.
• be clear about the ask ‘to live in the house so that child can have stability’ until the house sells.
• May be offer to stay elsewhere when he has your child so that your child doesn’t have to move (your parents for now and then may be a friend?’)

Good luck.