Was I wrong to borrow from my mum's account and repay it?

[Acaciagirl]

Hi,
im 46 divorced and spend a lot of time looking after my mum. She’s 80 and has some issues- mobility etc. she’s also getting confused over things- this being investigated.

I have power of attorney over her money and health. She has a property worth 300k ish mortgage free, about 200k saved and a very good monthly income,

I struggle financially and have, on occasions borrowed from mums account and then paid it back asap. I’ve not asked mum beforehand as she’d worry however I know that she would always help me.

I mentioned this to a friend who said that what I’ve done is terrible and that I should be ashamed. I feel awful now. I’ve never taken money with the intention of keeping it, I’ve only ever borrowed. How do I live with myself now.

I think you are abusing the power of attorney because you didn't ask your Mum first. I'm sure if you asked your Mum she would agree but not asking her is wrong.

Well, you shouldn’t have done it but you are here now so the best thing you can do is write up a list of all transaction. Date taken, amount, date paid back. Worst case scenario is that you’ll have to prove you gained no long term benefit and you deprived your mum of no assets.

I love mum very much and I’d never do anything Intentionally abusive

Why don’t you just talk to your mum about the fact you’re struggling financially.

It would worry her and she’d say just take the money. I don’t want that- I have to repay it

Yeah this is terrible. Also illegal. It's stealing however you dress it up.

It is abusing your power of attorney. If you have to provide accounts it would show you paying money to yourself (regardless of the fact you repaid it)

I'm amazed you have to ask. It's obviously wrong and an abuse of the power of attorney ... the fact you are trying to justify it would have concerned me too. It doesn't matter what your mum's house is worth or how much she has in the bank.

You'll need to make a note of how much you took, what for and the date you paid it back just in case questions are asked later.

This is abuse of POA. The Office of Public Guardian will definitely not take this lightly.

This is financial abuse. It’s not ok.

I don’t currently owe her anything as I’ve repaid what I’ve borrowed

I can completely see why your tempted and probably on the face of it no harm done. However the problem is getting comfortable with borrowing to the point you have borrowed far too much and it becomes easy and you can't just pay it back on payday.
Are we talking £x for essential food/bills etc?
Or £xx because you want to go on that night out you can't stretch to?
Asked with no judgement I just think it may make a difference.

This. 100% this

https://www.gov.uk/manage-lasting-power-attorney/property-financial-affairs

"You must apply to the Court of Protection for any other type of gift or donation, even if the donor has given them before. These include:

paying someone’s school or university fees
letting someone live in the donor’s property without paying market rent (anything they pay below market rent counts as a gift)
interest-free loans"

You can take money for your own use, even if you pay it back quickly. The OPG could revoke your power to act as her attorney.

https://www.gov.uk/manage-lasting-power-attorney/records-duties

Keep a record of:

• important decisions you make and when you make them, for example selling the donor’s home or agreeing to medical treatment
• the donor’s assets, income and how you spend their money - if you’re their finance and property affairs attorney

Include details of who you asked for advice and any disagreements. Do not include small, everyday decisions.

The Office of the Public Guardian (OPG) and Court of Protection can check your decisions. They may:

arrange a visit with you and the donor together, or the donor alone

contact other people such as the donor’s family, bank or care workers

They can investigate and stop you acting as an attorney if, for example:

you’ve done something the lasting power of attorney (LPA) says you cannot

you’ve not done something the LPA has instructed you to do

you’ve not been acting in the donor’s best interests

you misuse the donor’s money or make decisions to benefit yourself

you do something that goes against their human or civil rights

the donor is not being treated well

the donor made the LPA under pressure or they were tricked into it

Borrowing money under the POA comes under breach of fiduciary or theft , regardless of the fact you paid it back later . Any transaction carried out under a POA has to be in the best interests of the account holder .
Def as previous poster has mentioned draw a list up of all dates you have borrowed and repaid in case the bank picks up on it at some stage , or another family member does at some point.
I would talk to your mum even if you think she may worry a little because this really isn’t what the POA is for .

I can see why you do it. As long as you pay it back I can’t see a problem. Get a notebook and note everything down so you have proof if asked one day.

@Acaciagirl are you keeping proper records of spending and keeping receipts for all that you spend from her account? It's one of the responsibilities of an attorney.

You must never borrow money again and I would keep very careful records of what you've borrowed and when you have paid it back.

It’s not financial abuse - you’re not impacting your mum’s life at all in doing this.

It is however an abuse of power, and not allowed under a power of attorney as PPs are pointing out.

But if you told her you were struggling and she would help then let her? It’s what parents want to do?

But otherwise stop, and write down everything you’ve taken and the date you’ve paid it back in case you’re asked.

Also isn’t poa for when they have no capacity? It kicks in then? If she has no capacity she can’t concern to giving you money anyway

Haven't you posted about this before??

You are abusing your position of trust massively.

"I mentioned this to a friend who said that what I’ve done is terrible and that I should be ashamed. I feel awful now. I’ve never taken money with the intention of keeping it, I’ve only ever borrowed. How do I live with myself now."

I don't know how you're going to live with yourself but you should also be ashamed that it took someone else to point out how out of order you are.

And to top it all, you still felt the need to ask Mumsnet.

If you couldn't work it out for yourself, you should NOT have POA.

Financial POA can be activated before capacity is lost if agreed at the time of setting it up. We have done this for my DM, helps when doing shopping for her if she is unable to get to the shops

I haven’t

And this is a shite excuse too.

If she hasn't noticed you taking her money without permission, she's not going to notice you paying it back if you did get permission is she?