Was I wrong to borrow from my mum's account and repay it?

[Acaciagirl]

Hi,
im 46 divorced and spend a lot of time looking after my mum. She’s 80 and has some issues- mobility etc. she’s also getting confused over things- this being investigated.

I have power of attorney over her money and health. She has a property worth 300k ish mortgage free, about 200k saved and a very good monthly income,

I struggle financially and have, on occasions borrowed from mums account and then paid it back asap. I’ve not asked mum beforehand as she’d worry however I know that she would always help me.

I mentioned this to a friend who said that what I’ve done is terrible and that I should be ashamed. I feel awful now. I’ve never taken money with the intention of keeping it, I’ve only ever borrowed. How do I live with myself now.

No it doesn't. People often hand over responsibility for their financial affairs because of physical difficulties which make it difficult for them to get to the bank, or simply because they don't want the hassle.
Most of the people of the generation who have relatives handling their affairs currently do not want Internet banking, ir to have to deal with it.

For all the 'it's theft' people - it isn't theft, theft needs to have the intent to permanently deprive and if the OP can show she has paid it back every time, that is not theft.

Legally it is still an abuse of power.

Morally - that's going to depend very much on the people in question.

My Dad has ACTIVELY asked my sister and I NOT to discuss finances with him. He now finds it extremely worrying and upsetting, he asked us to just make sure he has enough in his pocket for a couple of pints and then he knows what he has and doesn't have to think about anything else.

He has also made it clear he does not want to know if we're struggling, just sort it out ourselves, because again it leaves him really panicky and we end up with him ringing up at all hours crying because he can't help, can't do the things he used to do, can't afford xyz (he can afford to live, he cannot afford to eat out every night at pub prices though, his brain is stuck in mid 90s pub prices!)...

He has put it in writing that we're to manage his finances as we see fit and can borrow without specific prior request. That was his suggestion.(We do have financial POA).

We have not actually done it, there ain't enough there to borrow, and I doubt that would stand up because he isn't really competent to make financial decisions but it made him feel better to do it.

So yes some people would genuinely prefer their child to do as the OP is doing!

Sorry, a bunch of typos there.

I would be fine with it, what am I going to do with hundreds of thousands at the age of 80?

This. It's wrong.

I agree.

This how lots of people get on a rocky road f borrowing 'just a bit' and before you know it it's all out of hand (and they are in the news for stealing).

Detail what you have borrowed and repaid so far and don't be tempted to do it again

X

Cover your care bills.

A person cannot receive Carer's Allowance if they earn more than 204 pounds net a week.
There are other conditions too.
OP is your mother in receipt of Attendance Allowance.?
If not apply for it.
Contact Age UK and local Carer's Centre for further advice.
Might be wise to ask for assistance in applying for AA.

What do you understand about your role?
It’s awful that you are struggling and felt that you had no other option but it’s important that you understand the seriousness of this.
You could end up with a criminal record and a custodial sentence.

It’s not theft ( no matter what anyone else says) as one of the ingredients of theft is “intent to permanently deprive” . Due to you having paid it back every time you’ve done this previously, it would be hard to prove that ingredient. You are, however, abusing your position of trust and could be relieved of your role.
why not just tell her about your situation and she can gift you some money?

No it isn't if it's given back. First law of theft = intention to PERMANENTLY deprive.

OP do make sure that you are accounting for everything. When you have PoA you are supposed to act in the interests of the person you are acting for, not yourself. If someone were to report your dealings the police might well be interested.

My mum has two tales - one was a neighbour whose sister in law did errands for her and used her card rather than her own and claiming back. Nosy neighbour (who was up to no good himself) found out and reported it to police who actually got involved though there was no further action.

The second story is she has a neighbour who split up from her first husband decades ago but they had a daughter together. When he became infirm and went into a home, the daughter proceeded to spend a good deal of his money. He died before the money ran out for his care, fortunately for her. Now THAT is theft even though she was the only beneficiary of his will anyway.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/giving-gifts/giving-gifts-web-version

Also not permitted. The normal rules don't apply once an LPA is in place.

I'm an appointee for 3 children/young adults with learning disabilities. The money from. Their pip goes into their own bank accounts and I get receipts for every single thing I get them and if they withdraw some money for spending from cash till I also put cash till receipt and document on a spreadsheet exactly what it has been spent on. I'm aware at some point in the future imight be audited and DH is an accountant and told me to do it this way. It only takes a minute to open the spreadsheet add the date, item and value of item. Then when it gets audited they can cross reference it against the till receipts.

You can't ask a person who is no longer compis mental to give you gifts.

Sorry to bang on, but people search up these threads later. That he has put in writing that you should do something doesn't absolve you of the responsibilities of being an attorney (I know you aren't going to do it). The regulations take precedence.

I’d still be fine with it.

I'm not sure you can just ask your mum if you have POA because she lacks capacity?

These posts are so cold.

I love my Mum, I'd do anything for her and vice versa. I trust her completely to have my best interests at heart, and she trusts me. If I'm shopping and she wants something, I'll just buy it for her, without asking for the money. She used to do the same for me when she was more mobile and able to get out and about.

All I can assume is that most of the people on this thread have cold transactional relationships with their parents, where every penny has to be counted up, justified and documented.

If I needed a temporary loan and I had access to my Mum's account, she'd expect me to take it. She'd probably be offended if I asked her, as the implication would be that she might say no, which of course she never would.

MN is funny at times.

Borrowing money off your elderly mum and paying it back - terrible.

Raiding your child's savings and possibly but probably not paying it back - well that's ok because COL.

Hmmm.

As a point of interest can disbursements be repaid ie bus fares, taxi costs when OP does chores like shopping?

If I'm shopping and she wants something, I'll just buy it for her, without asking for the money

I do too but she insists on paying me back anyway!

Nine pieces of French Crown jewellery were borrowed in April from the Louvre. One piece was returned right on the pavement in the street outside the museum. No harm done.

Ask her. If she worries and tells you to just take it, thank her profusely and pay it back anyway. She is clearly not checking her accounts. That way you have her permission but also know you are doing the right thing by paying it back.

What are child savings? Is it the money parents work their arses off to save and put into the child's savings? Or do you mean as in 'used child benefit to buy fags?'

What kind of account of your DM's are you borrowing from? if it is not a current account, or you are moving her money into her current account so you can borrow from it, then she is likely to be losing interest on the amounts you took. That is tantamount to theft because you would be depriving her of an amount of interest, unless you pay it back with interest added. This would likely look dodgy to the Office of the Public Guardian.

What would happen to me if I borrowed money from my place of employment (behind my manager’s back) and paid it all back at a later date? Do I have a leg to stand on even if I pay it all back?