Was I wrong to borrow from my mum's account and repay it?

[Acaciagirl]

Hi,
im 46 divorced and spend a lot of time looking after my mum. She’s 80 and has some issues- mobility etc. she’s also getting confused over things- this being investigated.

I have power of attorney over her money and health. She has a property worth 300k ish mortgage free, about 200k saved and a very good monthly income,

I struggle financially and have, on occasions borrowed from mums account and then paid it back asap. I’ve not asked mum beforehand as she’d worry however I know that she would always help me.

I mentioned this to a friend who said that what I’ve done is terrible and that I should be ashamed. I feel awful now. I’ve never taken money with the intention of keeping it, I’ve only ever borrowed. How do I live with myself now.

Maybe you need to have an honest discussion about needing to be paid for the care you're providing, otherwise you could be working those hours.

Again, culturally fine, legally not fine. If you want to be informal about finances, don't take a formal, legally appointed role. It's that simple.

Yep, I hadn't looked it up but suspected this was the case - he insisted, it makes him feel better, we can just ignore it and carry on as we are! Trying to explain to him that this might be OK if we did not have the POA but because we do it definitely isn't is WAY beyond him.

No. To get a POA you apply before the person has lost capacity. There are two types, one covers finance and the other health.

Both the person needing a POA and the person or people who will administer it have to sign to show they understand the implications. The applicants signatures have to be witnessed by a verified independent witness. The forms are then lodged with a Government agency, who incidentally check the applications with a fine tooth comb. The application can be revoked by the applicant at any time before they are deemed to have lost capacity. And some POA are never invoked but are there as a safeguard.

btw if you are thinking of applying for one can I strongly advise that you request paper copies to fill in and return. The form is complicated , even with the excellent advice booklet they give, but the thought of doing it online sends shivers up my spine! I ended up using four different colours of post it notes to keep track of who had to sign where.

I had POA for an elderly relative . I kept meticulous records of any monies spent and kept receipts. I never wanted to be in the position where I was questioned by anyone regarding his finances . You should do the same . Do you have any siblings as they might ask too.
If you don't qualify for Carers Allowance I would have a discussion with your mother about this . Agree on a sum and the number of guaranteed hours . Anything else is voluntary and not charged for . Besides her savings she must have an income as well. I am sure she would rather pay you than Carers or a nursing home ..

You're behaving without integrity op - and you could come very unstuck if you ever can't repay it. You say you love your mum but you're stealing from her.

POA is a legal position, you have to follow the rules

@Acaciagirl - as PP have said, you can't borrow money the way you have been doing. It's all paid back so no harm has been done yet but you cannot do it again. We all fuck up and need forgiveness sometimes (although some posters on AIBU would have you believe they are perfect).

However, as PP have said, if you're struggling, give your mother the option to help you. Also, can you organise finances so that you struggle less? The current situation is clearly not sustainable for you.

You have to separate the family connection once you become POA, what you might do as a family cannot be blithely followed once POA is invoked. You need to treat it as legal position, as if you are not a relative but a professional dealing with someone's finances

Your mum hasn't lost capacity yet, as far as I can tell from your post. So I'd just ask her. Yes she might want to give it to you instead, but you can choose to put it back.

I have been both an attorney and am now a donor. Financial POA can be used at any time with the permission of the donor, which your mum has already done by asking you to pay bills etc for her (and which I did for my mum for many years, as she had capacity but was paralysed by a stroke). So I'd simply ask her.

Don't beat yourself up. A lot of people on here have given you an unnecessarily hard time. Ideally you shouldn't have done it, but it's paid back, and you know how to go forward if you need that help again.

In your mum's position (I'm knocking on a bit so it could happen at any time) I would want to keep supporting my children in the same way that I do now. So I'd not be uncomfortable about this.

I’m appalled that someone would do this. It’s dishonest. Of course you should ask her permission before helping yourself to her funds.

I have POA for my nan, as does my step mum. Not a single purchase or withdrawal occurs without us knowing and her statements are monitored.

It’s not that we don’t trust eachother - it’s that legally if she were to pass away I have to prove every purchase/ withdrawal to her estate! In which we are also going to be Benefactors from.

what you have done is a full misuse of your POA and if the bank suspects anything - they will investigate you. You are legally obliged by the court to act in a better manner and if you can’t do that- give up your rights to protect your own mum.

I know if we needed anything my Nan would hand it over - it’s not her job to do that. It’s also not your mum’s. It’s your legal responsibility to protect her assets as her POA.

It’s also a flag that you didn’t even ask her- was it small amounts? If you are struggling then get her to declare and sign for you to take some cash out for help. Get it witnessed as an audit trail. You cannot legally abuse the POA again- if I was a friend I would be very concerned here.

It’s really not a case of ‘borrowing it’. You didn’t ask her …

Yes you are wrong but as you have paid back and are not currently in debt to her then I would get the paperwork in order to show you have paid it all back and then never do it again. I think what you're doing for her i.e. "spending a lot of time looking after her" counts for a lot so don't spiral into self loathing. Just don't do it again.

I was relieved my brother had POA over my parents finances because I just couldn't be doing with it all - it is quite official having POA.

My brother in law and his wife done this to the tune of tens of thousands of pounds whilst living with FIL who has dementia. When my husband found out we reported him to the OPG who took over a year to have the financial POA removed from BiL. As soon as BiL and his wife lost access to FiL’s money, he had a “fall” and BiL refused to let him come home to the house FiL owned and where he and the wife lived rent free for over ten years because they said it would be too stressful. They subsequently shoved him into a care home against my husband’s wishes and have since fled to the wife’s home country of Mongolia where they will live like kings on the money they stole from FIL. They have no remorse. At least you are aware of what you’ve done and needed the money. BiL lived in a leafy north London suburb and had no money worries. I think I should start my own AIBU thread for wanting to publicly name and shame him!

Could be a birthday gift?
For attorneys acting under a registered property and financial affairs LPA, these exceptions are set out in section 12(2) of the Act. To count as an exception, the gift must satisfy all three points below. It must be:

1. given on a customary occasion for making gifts within families or among friends and associates (for example, births, birthdays, weddings or civil partnerships, Christmas, Eid, Diwali, Hanukkah and Chinese New Year)
2. to someone related or connected to the person or (if not a person) to a charity the person supported or might have supported
3. of reasonable value, taking into account the circumstances in each case and, in particular, the size of the person’s estate

Just 'being a bit confused' does not equal lacking capacity. Capacity is judged over several different criteria, and it doesn't sound as though OP 's mother is anywhere near that yet.

My mum was tested for capacity several times, and passed every time, despite making terrible decisions and acting very irrationally. The bar is high.

I fully understand how it's happened and I don't for a minute see it as abuse. However, I do believe that after death , the authorities can go through her bank account for big transactions and it wouldn't be taken well. I can't remember how I found that out now. Are the repayments easily visible so that they can be traced in and out? If you're worried then I think you need to ask a solicitor. Best wishes OP.

You can still repay even if she said take it. What’s done is done, but from now on ask first and quietly repay it back even if she insists you don’t.

Do you have proof you repaid it?

@Lougle I have POA for my Mum. It's not needed yet, but it's there for when her capacity diminishes. I'm the best person to have this role as no one in the world loves and cares about her as much as I do.

It will be there in the bank statements.

But realistically, no-one is going to go through the mum's bank statements before or after death, unless someone reports OP. Certainly no-one ever checked my mum's.

My brother and I both had poa and always asked each other to check the statements regularly, and we're would always run payments past each other. But that was for our own peace of mind. It was always evident that no-one was going to be monitoring us.

The office of the public guardian will have guidance for those who are POA’s.
It sets out what you should and should not do.

The purpose of the POA is to look after her interests. And that will include looking after her assets and money to the best.

I would check the Public Guardian website and read the guidance.

Did you post about this last year, different name ??

Good grief, there’s some dramatic people on this thread - ‘financial abuse’ etc! But in short, you shouldn’t have done it and yes you should have asked. It’s done now so best thing to do is have a chat with her. If you’re spending a lot of time caring for her and are struggling, you could honestly ask if she’d contribute to petrol expenses or whatever is appropriate. Is she getting Attendance Allowance? If so, then it’s for those kinds of things - paying people to help you.

A few years back I was in a similar position doing a lot for my elderly dad. I did a lot of miles on his behalf, shopping, hospital appointments etc and he gave me £100 a month to cover all my expenses. When I moved into a better paid role and no longer needed it, I asked him to stop.

Parents do like to help their kids (well, some do!) so there’s nothing wrong with asking for some help. 😊

just cos you can’t see a problem with it doesn’t mean there isn’t one.

would you have the same opinion if it was the vulnerable ladies carer/carehome/solicitor etc that was taking the money.

its a horrible breach of trust and prison sentence worthy.

good idea to keep records though will deffo make things easier for the police