Was I wrong to borrow from my mum's account and repay it?

[Acaciagirl]

Hi,
im 46 divorced and spend a lot of time looking after my mum. She’s 80 and has some issues- mobility etc. she’s also getting confused over things- this being investigated.

I have power of attorney over her money and health. She has a property worth 300k ish mortgage free, about 200k saved and a very good monthly income,

I struggle financially and have, on occasions borrowed from mums account and then paid it back asap. I’ve not asked mum beforehand as she’d worry however I know that she would always help me.

I mentioned this to a friend who said that what I’ve done is terrible and that I should be ashamed. I feel awful now. I’ve never taken money with the intention of keeping it, I’ve only ever borrowed. How do I live with myself now.

Do you have siblings? Not sure if anyone has already asked you but haven't see a post where you clarify this. I would be extremely wary if this was the case.

Of course you shouldn't take the money from her even if you know you are going to repay it. If you find yourself in a similar situation in the future ou should definitely speak to her - I bet she would be more than happy to gift you some of your inheritance now. There are legal amounts that are allowed to be gifted to you could check this out to make sure everything is above board.

But, you should just move on. Don't beat yourself up about what has happened as you have rectified the situation. And don't tell anyone else!

So you'd rather steal take the money without telling her as you don't want to worry her, than just straight up ask her and let her give you the money happily? Strange logic.

Yes.
If they asked I’d say yes, if they did t ask as it would worry me I’d ask be ok with this.

I never said it was the same poster, I said the exact same scenario was posted.

It's an abuse of power, and a massive breach of trust.

Is there a chance your friend will report it to someone? If so, you could be in for a lot of trouble.

I get that to you it probably seems harmless but there is a reason there are checks in place for POA.

If you can't be trusted with it, or you think you might be tempted to dip into your mother's money again, is there another family member who would be better equipped to handle it?

100% this

So you wouldn't be OK with it them.

@Acaciagirl you didn't steal it you paid it back, it was a loan . I would ask your Mum when she is having a good day would she mind if you did this .

I think the OP knew it was dodgy and that’s the reason she didn’t ask.

Do you know why you had to ask? Because deep down you know this is wrong, you just wanted 'reinforcement' from the equally morally deficient posters. If you are doing the right thing, you don't have to ask, because you know what is right.

Do you know who you remind me of? With this preface of 'elderly, I help her, she is getting confused'? You remind me of an avaricious, vile care home owner I rented a room from (her house, not care home) when I was a student. She was saying that 'the old dears don't like fruit, new types of food, and cakes are bad for them (of course, we need to worry about sugar-control in the late 80s...), so she gave them half a sandwich with a cup of tea, day in, day out - 'but this is all they can manage, and I hate food waste'.

P.S. When did our high trust society became a shit-hole? When we started fucking over the vulnerable in our own families and then proceeded to the wider society.

She can't do that. Personal attorneys cannot receive money for being an attorney. They can only claim travel costs, postage, etc., and they can only claim travel costs if they wouldn't be visiting anyway on a personal level.

It's bad enough doing this when being trusted with POA. Why in the world would you tell anyone about it?

This.

It's illegal, but ot isn't financial abuse.

Just keep a record of what's already happened and don't borrow asking again.

I understand why you don't want to worry her, and it's somewhat unfair if your earning power is compromised by being her carer that you can't borrow very small amounts she has sitting in a current account and would have lent you before you had power of attorney. However you have to protect yourself from accusations.

You don't deserve the pile on - being a carer is hours and hours of thankless work which is probably stopping you maximising your own earnings and likely costing you money in travel as well as lost income. Carers allowance won't be covering much.

Can't you claim carers allowance for looking after your Mum @Acaciagirl, also your Mum may be entitled to Attendance allowance. Well worth you finding out.

It's a slippery slope and probably how a lot of the fraud cases that end in court start. What happens if you have an unexpected financial emergency and can't pay it back straight away?
Think of it as how would you feel if someone was borrowing from you without your permission.
Show your mum some respect. Be honest with your mum.

If the POA has been activated it is because the person no longer has the competence to manage their own affairs, so asking them to agree to a loan doesn’t come into it. The mum does not have the competence to agree.

If however the OPs mother does still have competence and the OP was using her card to dip into her bank account and claiming she is doing so under POA then , hmm, that is a very murky set of circumstances indeed.

She can gift you 3000 a year without it impacting inheritance task. Ask her to agree to gift you 3000 a year. All at once or over each month.
Then it is gift to you. You spend it as you like.

How Inheritance Tax works: thresholds, rules and allowances: Rules on giving gifts - GOV.UK https://share.google/Nmf7OoA9PuhjZwAF0

Taking something belonging to someone else without their consent or knowledge is stealing.

A loan is an arranged agreement.

It wasn't a loan. A loan is a contract between two people whereby one person gives money and they agree terms on which the other will pay it back.

It isn't a loan to take money without asking.

Sadly, I agree that this is abusing the power of attorney you have, regardless that you pay it back each time.

You say you are struggling financially, is it a viable option to move in with your mum if you already provide a lot of her care? Are you receiving everything that you are entitled to I.E carers allowance.

Taking money that does not belong to you is stealing, the fact that you pay it back doesn't negate that.

You must always ask your mum first. You say that she'll say 'just take it' and you aren't comfortable with that. Fine, then simply say 'thank you' and pay it back anyway. If she hasn't noticed you stealing then repaying, she also won't notice you repaying after she's actually given you permission to take money.

Just be sure you document, document, document!!

Not necessarily. There is an optional clause in property and finance LPAs to allow the attorney to act even when the donor has capacity. However, that would be acting with consent. Not acting because it would be too stressful to involve her so she'll do it anyway.

Does your mum never look at her statements OP - is she beyond that ? If not I think it would be better to list ins and outs and have a chat with her just to tell her. She may be worried , but it will bring things out in the open and she may suggest giving you a small lump sum if that would help -also are we talking the odd £100 or thousands?

If she is beyond that then I think you really have to put it behind you , list it, but not go there again .

Very good point.

Yes,that will stand up in court.

“ My mother was so confused your honour that the POA was invoked as she could no longer manage her own financial affairs. But on the 3rd of July she had a really good day and knew who I was so I asked her if I could take money out of her account and she said ‘Yes of course you can dear. Have I had my tea?’ “