Was I wrong to borrow from my mum's account and repay it?

[Acaciagirl]

Hi,
im 46 divorced and spend a lot of time looking after my mum. She’s 80 and has some issues- mobility etc. she’s also getting confused over things- this being investigated.

I have power of attorney over her money and health. She has a property worth 300k ish mortgage free, about 200k saved and a very good monthly income,

I struggle financially and have, on occasions borrowed from mums account and then paid it back asap. I’ve not asked mum beforehand as she’d worry however I know that she would always help me.

I mentioned this to a friend who said that what I’ve done is terrible and that I should be ashamed. I feel awful now. I’ve never taken money with the intention of keeping it, I’ve only ever borrowed. How do I live with myself now.

Her mother has not yet lost capacity. She gets a bit confused occasionally which is being looked into, but that is not the same as lack of capacity. The bar for loss of capacity is very high, as I've witnessed myself.

I think it’s immoral tbh, I wouldn’t just take a tenner from someones purse thinking “I’ll pay that back asap”. If you need help then ask, you can’t just take it, it’s not yours.

Financial LPA is in place from the moment it's registered. The attorney can use it straight away, with the permission of the donor.

I made my DDs my attorneys several years ago, and they've already been able to use it when I was out of the country.

It's the health LPA that can only be activated when the donor is unable to make their own decisions.

As an attorney I can’t just go into her bank account and take money for myself, even if she was happy for me to do so

Yes you can. My mother, paralysed by a stroke so unable to physically do her own banking, would ask me, as her attorney to take out money for my birthday (as well as for other family birthdays)

If the OP has the newer LPA, this must be registered BEFORE they lose capacity.

And if you've ever had to look after someone with dementia you'd know capacity varies quite wildly. My Dad sometimes knows whats a good idea and whats not, he always knows what HE wants... but doesn't always know if thats sensible, possible, practical etc.

He/we sorted out the POA before all that happened and he was happy then to register it immediately so we can act for him as and when necessary. If you wait until someone loses all capacity you cannot then register the LPA.

You're not doing anything wrong. You know your mum and say she'd lend you the money, and you always pay her back. My mum wouldn't have a problem with this at all.

I meant if I just needed money without asking (but knowing my mum wouldn’t mind or wouldn’t have minded when having capacity). Fine if she told me to, when having capacity.

I know my mum wouldn’t want me to struggle to pay my bills but as attorney I can’t just take money out of her account on that basis. If she said please take £150 to pay your bills, and put it in writing, whilst still having capacity that would be okay

Do you have siblings?

Ok, sorry for posting about information that I clearly have no knowledge of.

My reply was because OP hasn't mentioned her mom has lost capacity. At least it hasn't been diagnosed yet.

The Law Society doesn't agree with you.

Introduction
Who should read this guidance?
This guidance is aimed at all solicitors who advise clients who are or may be at risk of financial abuse, in particular those conducting private client work involving estate and financial planning, property transactions, execution of wills or lasting powers of attorney (LPAs).
It may also be useful to other professionals working with adults at risk of financial abuse, and to carers, families and friends.
Use of terminology
We acknowledge the common view that the word 'vulnerable' can be perceived as negative and can undermine the fact that the fault for any abuse lies solely with the perpetrator. It is the person’s circumstances that make them vulnerable.
'Vulnerable adults' has been used in this guidance, rather than ‘adults at risk’ or ‘adults with care and support needs’, as the term is commonly used within our society and by judges. It is only intended to refer to people at greater risk of financial abuse.
What is the issue?
The risk of financial abuse is increasing due to economic factors, social isolation, socio-cultural factors and advances in technology.
Solicitors are well placed to identify possible or actual financial abuse. They should consider whether a client’s circumstances might make them vulnerable to the risk of abuse and acting against their own interests whenever they are consulted or instructed by a client in any matter.
Solicitors have a responsibility to be aware of financial abuse and to understand their role in preventing it, identifying it, and taking action on behalf of the client in the event of suspected or actual financial abuse in the course of their practice. This guidance aims to help solicitors with these responsibilities.
The Solicitors Regulation Authority's (SRA) Code of Conduct for Solicitors, RELs and RFLs sets out all of its regulatory requirements. It outlines the ethical and competency standards that the SRA expects of law firms and practitioners.
The Law Society’s guidance on meeting the needs of vulnerable clients sets out factors which increase a client’s vulnerability to abuse, and also covers capacity and undue influence.
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It's not theft as there's no permanent deprivation/intent to permanently deprive. It is however not permitted with POA so, if you have paid it all back now, don't borrow any more. It's understandable why you did it if you are struggling financially but to outsiders it's going to look like financial abuse of an elderly lady so you cannot continue to do it.

The point is that the POA is not there so that you can help yourself, it’s so you can act for your mums benefit and in her best interests, and that doesn’t necessarily mean doing what she would have done had she had capacity or not been vulnerable.

Without the POA you’d have to ask your mum, or arrange credit elsewhere, in future you should arrange an overdraft with your bank. Because POAs are used mainly for vulnerable people you have to be beyond reproach if you have been trusted with one, if you can’t arrange an overdraft or have difficulty arranging credit for yourself then that could put you in a vulnerable position, and you should consider whether you’re the best person to have the POA or whether you should take a step back for both your sakes.

When DM looked after both DGM, she filled her car up alternate months using their cards. They knew about it and she did a lot of mileage for them. I can’t say I wouldn’t do the same if I were you in the same boat, and that you are getting a very bad rap here.
You haven’t stolen anything. Your mum would not want you to struggle.
I would fess up to her and say that you’ve had some financial difficulties and have on occasion borrowed and paid back. If she gets a bank statement it’s evidenced there, which proves to anyone that you have not stolen anything!

It isn't about theft and it's unlikely it could be classed as such because there is no intention to permanently deprive, but what it is about is the breach of fiduciary duty. Like many on here you have spectacularly missed the point that the attorney must always act in the best interests of the patient, and that op has failed in that duty and this is evidenced in her own words. That duty is non negotiable.

She is very much doing something wrong. As someone with POA she has to follow the rules. She cant justvuse her mum's bank account to borrow money from.

It makes no difference that she paid it back. She cannot, as an attorney, take money from her mum's account for her own benefit. Paying it back does not change this because she is not acting in best interest of the vulnerable.person she is attorney for.
That is the law. It dosen't matter what anyone thinks about whether she did right or wrong. The fact remains that she abused her position for her own benefit.

I'm really sorry, but morally speaking, what you have done is wrong, never mind legally.

If you told your Mum what you have been doing, how do you think she would respond? Really?

I genuinely cannot believe the amount of posters saying this is OK.

You really have to feel for old people nowadays when even their own families can’t be trusted

If she hasn’t lost capacity she would not have a POA in place.

That is not always the case

It shouldn’t have been done and if you were reported to the office of the public guardian they could revoke your appointee status and depending on the current POA it may mean a new one needs doing which could be an issue with your mums current mental state.

you know now so can draw a line under it, many banks offer financial health checks for free, it may be worthwhile chatting to your bank so see if they can do anything to protect your finances for the future

Thank you for all of the posts. I appreciate people’s feedback. As I said, I’ve repaid it all now and it’s not something I’ll ever do again without asking mum first

No, you can’t do it again AT ALL, as you have power of attorney. That’s what all the posts have been telling you.

POA has strict regulations, and you have to stick to them, legally.

Personally I think you have tried to minimise your behaviour and justify it by telling us HER financial situation.

Loads of informal carers have access to the cared fors finances because the cared for has provided them with the access.

LPA is only relevant once capacity is lost, and OP suggests this isn't the case.