Oh, peacemaker, peacemaker make me some peace - Trump Thread #167

[Spandauer]

Many, many more months of the Mango Mussolini's maniacal merde.

Trump’s Final Term Ends in: - Countdown Timer

Previous thread:
https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/5545753-green-is-the-new-blue-trump-thread-166

I’ve never heard that argument! It’s very weak, as many prisoners serving life do convert to Jesus as well. So it’s a complete nonsense as well.

I’m a Christian who is very opposed to the death penalty, as I do see it as breaking the sixth Commandment. Especially since many innocent people end up being executed along with those who are guilty.

So you aren't a real Christian then ?🤔

And there it starts again ....

It's logically, spiritually and grammatically impossible to reconcile any of the bible.

How much of the old testament have you dumped ? Remember you are allowed slaves. Also remember you have to damn people unto the third and fourth generations - I mean God demands it Presumably these criminals are in the line of descent that needs damning ?

Alternatively, if you can selectively ignore inconvenient bits of the old testament, then why not ignore the namby pamby bits of the new ?

And that's assuming we are looking at the same bible. Not all are equal (Maccabees, cough)

Believe what you want. Just don't use it as a reason to tell me what to do.

There is a death sentence thread on the go just now. And that was started by a Christian. I have posted a bit on it because the OP got the bit of the Bible that they quoted wrong. They put " an eye for an eye" in the wrong book.

Thread is here for you to join in.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/5555537-bring-back-the-death-penalty-in-this-case?page=1

Thank you so much, I will look in on that thread. It sounds like it might be interesting.

I won’t derail this thread any further and i apologise if I’ve caused offence, @SerendipityJane, I certainly wasn’t trying to tell anyone what to do. I was just rather stunned by that justification for the death penalty which I hadn’t heard before.

I am familiar with that reasoning for the death penalty. And hang about here for a while, because the Iran war has just got another injection of religion. And it's the "eye for an eye" bit.

From the CNN Iran war feed just now :

"US Secretary of State Marco Rubio insisted on Thursday that Tehran is “begging” the Trump administration for a peace agreement, after reporters pressed him on the president’s threat to destroy Iranian bridges and power plants this week.
Rubio doubled down on those comments, describing Trump’s move as “a head for an eye,” refering to Iran’s threat to take “an eye for an eye.” He further claimed that Iranian officials “haven’t come to their senses” and are “clearly not ready to make a deal.” An act of targeting civilian infrastructure could be considered a war crime.
Iran’s Foreign Ministry spokesperson, Esmaeil Baqaei, warned that Trump’s repeated threat to destroy Iranian bridges and power plants is “manifestly unlawful and criminal.”
That war of words escalated as both parties try to wrest control of shipping in the Strait of Hormuz – and now the Red Sea, opening up a new front of regional violence."

Iran is a theocracy of course. But here we have evangelical Rubio misquoting his Bible. While an official of what is supposed to be a secular state.

That should fire up MAGA a bit. Throw some Bible in to get them on side.

Oh @LizzieW1969 please don't feel the need to apologise.

I thought your posts were interesting.

@SerendipityJane rather likes to state things... strongly... and often ironically.

Please don't feel chased away by them.

Second this. 💯

Minute 9:30 from this video. If Marco Rubio gets elevated to running-for-pres status, the Dems need to plaster it everywhere possible. On social media, in ads, everywhere, but of course they won't.

Dead US service members and dead Iranian schoolgirls, infrastructure destroyed, crippling oil prices, and that fucker Rubio thinks it's a joke.

Another TRUTH from the bloke that knows everything about nuclear. Att

Here Trump says there will be no enrichment at all for Saudi Arabia. Got that. No enrichment at all. Only non-enriched allowed.

The problem is, his own US Dpt of Energy says it has to be enriched for power plants.

"Before natural uranium can be used as fuel in most nuclear power plants, it needs to undergo enrichment in order to sustain a nuclear chain reaction.
Natural uranium mined from the earth contains more than 99 percent uranium-238 (U-238), an isotope that decays slowly over billions of years.
The other 0.7 percent is uranium-235 (U-235) — a naturally occurring material which can sustain a fission chain reaction, releasing large amounts of energy.
Enrichment raises the concentration of U-235 in uranium fuel to make it more likely to sustain a reaction in commercial nuclear reactors. "

Yeah. I know that says most nuke power plants. And it appears Canada has a design that works with natural Uranium. That's all I could find.

Yes, they can buy the enriched fuel from other countries, but he is saying here "Civil (non enriched) nuclear facilities.

I know I am nit picking here, but why is it everything he says seems to pass through a Trump filter that makes everything clear as mud ?

Oh, the UAE nuke power plant uses enriched Uranium as fuel, But they buy it in. from South Korea.

Link for quote -

Uranium Enrichment, Explained | Department of Energy

Thank you for your kind words, and @placemats too. I confess that I always feel the need to respond to comments on the MAGA version of Christianity, or Christian nationalism. Because it completely distorts the teachings of Jesus in the New Testament.

The Old Testament texts need to be viewed through the lens of the New Testament.

This is where Christian arguments in favour of capital punishment fall down.

But obviously my reasons for being against capital punishment are not just because of my Christian faith. It’s also because of the risk of miscarriages of justice. We should never risk even one innocent person being executed.

I was listening to the daily. Biden was trying to do a deal whereby SA got nuclear plants in exchange for recognising Israel. The focus was on diplomacy and peace in the region

This one is purely commercial and essentially it doesn’t state what SA will have to buy in fuel, it says a body will decide how it gets fuel, and how it will be checked.

I don't have a faith @LizzieW1969 although I was brought up an Irish Catholic. However, I strongly believe in the right to practice faith so long as it doesn't impinge on my human rights and bodily autonomy, especially as a woman.

As an Irish catholic (lapsed), I find American evangelical viewpoint unchristian.

It seems to find the whole New Testament ‘woke’ and seems to be focused on the Old Testament. There is a cruelty, a delight in punching down which makes me dislike these people immensely

Trunp isn’t religious nor is Elon, but they love punching down, so share that in common

I find the Trump and crony wealth grab interesting, But their greed means they want 100% not the 71% they currently own and Trump seems to think anyone not happy with this a communist

FWIW, I agree with you. I don’t like termination but I really don’t believe that it’s right for the state to force women to go through pregnancy. I believe that if we want fewer terminations, we should focus on improving lives for women so that there will be fewer women who need them.

I remember reading that there used to be fewer terminations under the Democrats than under the Republicans because the Democrats focused on making women’s lives better, i.e they tackled poverty.

I’m also horrified at what’s being done to women since Roe v Wade was overturned.

I feel exactly the same way as you.

Well, that is you pencilled in as a regular poster on this thread then :-)

You will have a field day when he has his next evangelical event.

lol. I do post about those on Facebook actually. I really don’t understand why American Christians blindly support him.

You know what really pisses me off? Under USAF Mortuary Standards, the family of a fallen member of the military has the right to ban the presence of the media. Good, right? Sure, except WH official photographers can (and do) still capture their own images & video. They then release it to the media who is free to show it. And usually does.

Disgusting.

I have been following it casually. Because I have not seen anything published yet, so not a lot to post on.

However, when he TRUTHED that Saudi Arabia must join the Abraham accords, I was suspicious. And it appears my suspicion was justified. CNN now reporting :

"President Donald Trump has placed a new condition on a nuclear agreement with Saudi Arabia a day after formally approving it, saying the country now must join the Abraham Accords.
Trump wrote in a post on social media Thursday that the signed deal “will be approved,” but added, that it “is totally subject to Saudi Arabia joining the very respected and successful Abraham Accords.”"

EXACTLY as I suspected. He has ADDED that bit after signing. Art of the deal my arse.

Sometimes someone being a Christian simply means behaving as that person feels Jesus would approve, and in general that seems to mean smiling rather than scowling, not letting someone give you too much change in a shop, thanking the bus driver, not barging people out of your way, tithing to charity, helping people carry heavy shopping if they are obviously having trouble with it – you know, being on the whole a person others are glad to have around rather than a pita. I have known one or two Christians who were like that, as well as people of other faiths who followed the same sort of principles because whichever their God was would like it if they did.

As a result I can't see all religion as universally nasty or bollocks or pointless, because some people are helped by it to be that bit less shitty as they go through life. And some of them are comforted by the thought that God is around and is benign and wants more happiness rather than less. You or I may think that simply doesn't work, but if it does for them I can't see that as harmful.

Then on the other side of the coin are the Southern Baptists and their like, who are on the whole candidates for the nearest skip.

I can't say I've ever heard this 'logic'.

The usual justifications I 'was raised on' are the part of the NT verse that says 'The wages of sin is death' (Rom 6:23) although the rest of the verse 'but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord' could certainly bolster up what you've heard, although it really doesn't address the deaths of those prisoners who are not 'saved' on death row. And the 2nd part certainly wasn't emphasized in the pulpit pounding sermons I grew up on.

The other is OT Exo 21:24-25 the infamous 'eye for an eye', which states in verse 12 “Anyone who strikes a person with a fatal blow is to be put to death". But it also states in verse 17 "Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death" and we don't see that happening, do we?

But those Christians who support the death penalty seem to ignore the words of Christ himself in the Sermon on the Mount (Matt 5:38-39) "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. But I say unto you, that ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also".

It's pretty much universal in Christian teaching that the words of the NT 'overrule' the words of the OT, especially the words of Christ. But these days most of the 'hard core' and evangelical denominations like to pick and choose.

Ahem. Thus endeth the theological lesson for the day. I now step down from the pulpit and join the congregation.

I won’t derail this thread any further and i apologise if I’ve caused offence, ^, I certainly wasn’t trying to tell anyone what to do. I was just rather stunned by that justification for the death penalty which I hadn’t heard before.^

Absolute zero offence taken 😀

I mean who on earth could have a problem with "Let's all treat people as we'd like them to treat us" ?

You won't find anything in the Bible that isn't contradicted by something else in the bible.

I mean slavery. Not only not forbidden in the Bible (naturally). But you have very specific rules on how to treat your male - and female - slaves. Although in discussions I am aware it's only me that finds that rather creepy.

Got a U in my RE, now RS, and was very proud of myself. I too find it creepy.