I admit I had my babies a long time ago, so probably everything I think I know is wrong….

[CurlewKate]

…and I’m sure there have been many good changes in baby raising practices. But two things in particular seem to be causing anxiety and stress in the new and expecting mothers on here and in my RL that there seems to be no real evidence for, and seem to just be things to beat women up about. Colostrum harvesting and tummy time. Am I missing acres of scientific evidence? To nail my colours to the mast, I was a hippy dippy attachment parent who was old and confident enough to question anything I was told if it didn’t seem to make sense to me. But for many that’s a very very hard thing to do.

I think that there are some things about modern advice thst causes me to raise an eyebrow. A relative was told that she shouldn’t leave her baby alone whilst sleeping not even for two minutes to nip to the loo / make a cup of tea. I appreciate SIDS risks but it seems like a recipe for anxiety in vulnerable new mums.

Congrats, you win the race to the bottom. Jeez.

'Tummy time' is probably instinctive given how much time a baby can spend in a car seat,
Colostrum harvesting? I'll put my house on that being a fad that'll disappear in a few years.

It's not a race.

But babies in car seats in a recent thing in history. And throughout the world many babies still don't have car seats at all. British babies aren't physically different from others

So not getting the car seat thing being connected with " tummy time"

I’m sorry this isn’t clear to me. Are you saying that in the 18 page document you posted to prove your point about “the cost to the nhs the point is actually proved by navigating to the reference page at the end of the document and further clicking through the link to a second 104 page document named “Preventing disease and saving resources:
the potential contribution of increasing
breastfeeding rates in the UK”

is that your evidence?

I'm not offended- I think you made it up, and don’t have the evidence

Or maybe you had babies that were happy to be put down? My eldest was a nightmare. I didn’t get dressed for 6 weeks! I can remember the HV asking how I was eating, and I replied “KitKats”. I had a bad infection in my 4th degree tear that needed about 100 stitches (10.5lb baby), was severely anaemia and DS screamed like a banshee for hours a day. #2 on the other hand was a dream, happy, fed, slept for 3 hours and just slotted into family life.

Judging mothers who have had a more difficult time than you is unfair and quite smug.

Well obviously she could put down, she would just scream. What was the problem? Reflux?

Wtf is colostrum harvesting? My baby is 8 now

things have changed in that short time!

As it takes two/three days for the milk to come in, surely they baby gets the colostrum in the first feed or two whether that's 30 minutes after birth or 48 hours after birth. If 48, surely having some formula first, doesn't negate its benefits.

Like all things pregnancy, birth and post partum related, this sounds like another mantra, trotted out with no clear basis by mw's and hv's. A statement such as, "well Jane, if you decide to exclusively formula feed, your baby won't get any colostrum which passes antibodies from you to them and has other benefits. It would be good to breastfeed at least two to four times, but I have given you the information and it's your choice.

My DC are 31 and 27. I still recall the utter clap trap most midwives chatted about bf and how contradictory it was. Ditto the HV who trotted out the mantras but when asked about the research, the best she coukd manage was "oh, I don't know, I can only tell you what's written in the leaflet" A leaflet aimed at those with little intellect and which cited nothing.

Having said that, I'm surprised my DC survived looking at today's guidance:

Had a regular G&T or glass of wine when pg (obstetrician said it was fine and FAS occurred in alcohol dependent people)

Napped with them cuddled up to me on the sofa.

Used what is now probably a rudimentary car seat and they slept in it if they dropped off in the car.

Weaned at 3/4 months (GP's advice though)

Failed to breast feed ds beyond 8 weeks and due to what mw's and hv had to say on the subject was made to feel an utternfailire and developed pnd.

In their own room from day 1 (with DD moved into the nursery with her until 6 weeks).

Allowed to cry so I could have a shower, dry my hair and get dressed.

DH had no paternity leave and I coped from day 8 with both.

Made up bottles for 24 hours in advance (according to prevailing guidance).

Didn't have the dc weighed or see an HV after the second visit. She was rude and useless.

Booster seats in the car from about 2.5 years.

I have a dgc on the way and shall be staying very silent although dil seems sensible about it. Happily she's eating some meat and they haven't found out the sex. They are several thousands of miles away and interference will be limited but so too will help.

Are you sure she didn’t misinterpret that advice?

I had a horrible midwife ‘caring’ for us after DD was born. I was struggling with breastfeeding and she blamed the fact I had not harvested colostrum before birth. I had really tried. She really upset me.

I had mine in 2002, 2007 and 2011 and I had never ever heard of colostrum harvesting. I think it was mentioned as a vague possibility if you had GD but other than that. It was never mentioned

He’s severely autistic, and though a lot of parents don’t report problems in the first 12 months, I think it was because of that. He didn’t sleep through for the first time until he was 4 and even then it was only on the odd occasion. Looking back I don’t know how we got through it, but 30 years later I can still remember feeling that I was a shit mother, and knowing I was judged by other people with easy babies who were coping brilliantly and always had their hair and make-up done! It didn’t help that exH was a useless bag of shit so I was doing everything alone.

Is there evidence that babies who do not have tummy time have weak back and neck muscles?

My 23 year old only ever had sleeping bags. Nobody used blankets. And never a hat indoors. Vest, babygro, sleeping bag. Done

But you can put small small babies down The worst they will do is cry.

This may have been a misunderstanding. You are hit with so much advice and then the baby is so tiny and vulnerable it’s easy to misinterpret it.

I can relate in a way as my second is now diagnosed adhd, still doesn’t sleep through at 8 and slept about hour a time until she was about 3.

but the difference is I would never tell an expectant mother that was what having a newborn is like or to expect it. It’s uncommon, and most women should be able to do basic care for themselves with a newborn- in fact it’s important that they do.

It seems so strange to me! But then where I live, we often have poor heating and quite cold houses in winter.

I shouldn't think so. I can imagine it might help them to be mobile/stronger soon, but I'd think it would balance out pretty quickly!

Everyday was tummy time back in 1983 when my DS was born because we were told on their front was the safest way to put them. Now the advise is the opposite.
DS slept really well on his front because they cant have the startle reflex when they are lying like that and don't wake themselves up all the time.
I often had to wake DS up for his feeds because he slept so soundly.
Its sheer luck though if they are good sleepers not good parenting. I was 21 and knew nothing about anything 😂

TBF I've seen posters on MN absolutely swear blind that this is how the advice is intended. I know where it comes from - the previous advice was basically that it was important for babies to share the parents' room for the first 6 months, although the exact mechanism of protection is unknown, it seems this is protective against SIDS.

The reason the advice was changed to say ALL sleeps must be in a room with an adult is that people were following the advice for night sleeps but ignoring it for naps, or interpreting it in a baffling way e.g. baby slept in parents' room but parents slept in the spare room! So it was reworded to say it's not to do with the room itself but the presence of an adult, and that SIDS can unfortunately happen during any sleep not just overnight sleep, so to be aware of them during any sleep.

The problem is that guidelines need to be simple so that they can be easily remembered, so there is no room for nuance like of course it's fine to leave the room for a short time to make a cup of tea. And even that if the balance of risks works out this way, it's fine (IMO) to put a <6mo baby to sleep in their cot in your bedroom, and then come downstairs and have a couple of hours of an adult evening to yourself, with your partner.

I think the internet has very much changed the way that guidance is interpreted and I don't think that the way guidance is worded has caught up with this yet. It seemed to me, with my 2008 baby, that this was just starting but previous to this, guidance on SIDS risk reduction was essentially a list of things you can do to reduce the risk, similar to e.g. fire prevention guidelines. And people would follow as many as make sense but wouldn't overly worry if they couldn't follow every single item to the letter as long as they were taking some precautions, it was a temporary situation, etc. This is a sensible approach, IMO. But the internet has a very different approach to safety guidelines esp when it comes to early parenthood related things, IME - it becomes very rigid and there is a lot of moralising. I read a comment somewhere else which summed this up brilliantly where they essentially said that most people are very bad at doing a comprehensive risk/benefit analysis and instead prefer to divide activities up into "safe" vs "unsafe" and think about them in moral terms, ie, if you were doing a "safe" thing and something bad happens, then it's a terrible accident and you deserve sympathy, but if you were doing the "unsafe" thing then you were morally wrong and people are allowed to judge. That was a really interesting interpretation IMO and I think the commenter was right.

I'm sure some of this comes into victim-blaming type mentality too - like well if that baby died of SIDS but I can find the thing they did wrong, then my baby won't die of SIDS because I am following the guidance and Being Safe.

And I also think that we tend to have a balance mentally between exploration/taking risks, and safety/avoiding risks, because we need both of these things - too much of either one would be destructive in different ways. When the second mental "voice" becomes too strong, this is the driver of MH conditions such as OCD and anxiety. It would make PERFECT sense, IMO, if postnatally, a mother's brain was basically wired to amplify the safety seeking/risk avoidance type thoughts, because this is a time that we DO need to seek stability and safety and keep our new baby and ourself safe and away from harm. And we also know from research/clinical experience with people suffering from OCD and anxiety disorders, that actually going further towards avoidance and fear of risks is counterproductive because the more you go in this direction, the more that voice seeks certainty and control and eventually you get to a point you cannot have certainty or control and then that is a very frightening place for that person to be. So if you are already oriented in that direction anyway because of postnatal hormones and/or personal tendency towards this way of thinking then you will probably find others online who are thinking in the same way and this can be dangerous in terms of pointing you towards that tipping point where it becomes unwell thinking rather than sensible risk reduction.

Colostrum harvesting was never mentioned to me. Surely it’s only worth doing in certain circumstances? I knew I was going to breastfeed, so there would’ve been no value.

I'm so sorry. This is really unprofessional of her and very unfair. I honestly cannot fathom a situation where colostrum harvesting would be the make or break thing which makes BF "work" or not. It sounds like you had multiple factors stacked against you, it was not your fault.