EBSA support thread 2

[Luddite26]

Hopefully this links to Brambley Hedges EBSA support thread.
A community to discuss the processes and support each other when children are experiencing Emotionally Based School Avoidance.

@Leafywool schools that are not wholly independent can be named even if they object when consulted. LAs regularly direct placements to admit despite negative consultations. This sometimes works in parents’ favour and sometimes doesn’t.

As the school was parental preference and is not wholly independent, the LA must name the school unless the LA can prove:
-The setting is unsuitable for the age, ability, aptitude or special educational needs
-Attendance would be incompatible with the provision of efficient education for others
-Attendance would be incompatible with the efficient use of resources.

The bar to prove one of the above is high. Far higher than LAs and many schools admit. Incompatibility has to be something tangible and specific and is more than an “adverse effect”, “impact on” or “prejudicial to”. If the La can’t prove one of these, the LA can, and must, name them even if the school objects. The point you make about staffing wouldn’t meet that threshold. The time split between the RP and MS doesn’t necessarily meet that either even if it isn’t what they typically do.

Yes, the LA’s expectation is DD attends the placement named.

@Jimmyneutronsforehead I'm glad today went well again.

Thank you @2x4greenbrick - apologies for all the questions! I am trying hard to get my head around the situation.

So I had raised my concerns yesterday to the caseworker and she has made a panel submission to name the RP in line with parental preference. I now know the LA wouldn’t normally specifically name the RP in the EHCP, but obviously the SENDCO told me dd would be a ‘mainstream’ student so wouldn’t get access to the RP at all. The whole panel thing - does this mean the panel could say yes and basically force the school to give her a place in the RP? I am not expecting them to say yes by the way, I would actually eat my hat if they did.

When we went to look around it actually seemed like it would suit dd very well. I do personally think the support stated in her EHCP is overkill, and she would do great with the 80% mainstream classes and 20% intervention they offer. I just wish all of the people making these decisions could speak to me and know dd and what she’s like as I feel it would be a different story if everyone actually listened to me. I am hoping my meeting with the SENDCO at the new school will give me the opportunity to explain her strengths and what she actually needs support with. I know it’s difficult as they are just going off what’s written in a document they have been given.

@Leafywool yes, the LA could force the school to allow DD a resource provision place.

The ‘panel’ may not exist in the way you are probably imagining.

I do personally think the support stated in her EHCP is overkill

I would think incredibly carefully about this. It is highly unlikely the LA had included provision in excess of what DD reasonably requires.

and she would do great with the 80% mainstream classes and 20% intervention they offer.

I appreciate I only have a snippet of information from this thread and the other thread, but I would think carefully about this too. DD hasn’t managed MS so far. Even the RP still brings with it a lot of the difficulties and overwhelm mainstream has. DD hasn’t managed the MNHES provision either. Demands will only increase as DD moves through secondary. I don’t say this to hurt you, just an observation.

Our first preference school said something very similar for DS, although they were a purpose built specialist setting.

They even made a point to say we hadn't visited despite us having to sign in, and our Google maps data showing we were present on the date of their tour for a whole 2 hours. It felt very sneaky of them.

I think it's also very shady when they make a general point of a child's sensory profile, but don't consult their current setting. The primary preference school said they couldn't support DS because he struggles with transitions and sometimes it rains so if he is expecting to play outside and they have to change tack he will have a meltdown and take provision away from other pupils, but it will rain. It's England! And he hates getting wet as much as everyone else. It directly contradicted all of the advice we got from their pastoral team when we went on the tour who said they're extremely well equipped for dealing with pupils who struggle with transitions and have sensitive sensory profiles because that was their bread and butter, being a SCI school.

I'm so sorry about the consultation response. Please do not let it defeat your confidence though.

No not at all @2x4greenbrick I absolutely take what you’re saying on board. I think I struggle as she’s very up and down, and can be extremely capable and independent in many situations. There is a specialist SEN school in the area and I know a few children who go there, and honestly I think she would struggle socially there (and social aspect is a big thing for dd). My friends son has much higher/complex needs than dd and she had to battle to get him a place, so I assumed it wouldn’t be suitable for her. I don’t know if I’m making way too many assumptions though.

I am definitely imagining a panel of people sat at a desk reviewing paperwork and saying yes or no. I assume that’s not the case 😂

Special schools can vary a lot. Cohorts differ from one school to another.

Don’t let the fact someone else had a battle to get SS put you off if that is what you decide to pursue.

Thank you. It’s very funny you should say that as when we looked around the new school, the person who works in the RP (I think she was SENDCO for the RP?) was very positive about how they could support DD’s needs. We had just received the draft EHCP and I printed it out and showed her the section detailing the support and she seemed to think it wasn’t a problem. Although I appreciate it was just a quick look at it rather than anything more detailed. I think that’s why it’s thrown me so much.

Im usually very open with dd but I’ve not told her what’s going on as it won’t help her at all. She spent so long feeling in limbo and like she had no answers, and she has been so excited about the fact she finally has a new school to try. So until I have definitive answers for her I’m just going to say I’ve not heard anything about a start date yet (unless it drags on for months then I’ll have to rethink!)

Thank you, I feel like it might be sensible for me to speak to them and see if I can visit.

Sorry for hijacking thread again!! Hugely appreciate you all!

You're not hijacking. I think we have been through a similar sort of thing through DS's EBSA journey.

I think you might have to form a view very quickly on whether you want to push for the RP or change your parental preference to a special school based on the new info that school things they are not able to meet need. We appealed for a different school from the one we initially asked for.

I would say go to specialist schools with an open mind. The market is opening and changing quite quickly - I can think of a few schools that historically were for students with lower attainment that now have a stream of more able, very anxious children too, and newer schools are often aimed at this profile too. Independent ones can be hard to find - the expensive ones seem to be missing from our LA's local offer for some reason...

I think with the RP saying no you would have a good shot at EOTAS if there are no "academic enough" schools.

One thing that changed my thinking when we fell down this rabbit hole was understanding that someone can be academic, get good grades, go on to challenging A levels and uni without getting 9 GCSEs. It's surprising how few doors are closed if you get 5 or 6 good GCSEs rather than 9. It's fairly common in home educated children too. And this is what some special schools are doing - their students have often been out of school for a long time and they may not have that capacity for a full timetable on top of all their therapies etc but they can still get enough for their chosen post 16 route.

I'm couching this in terms of GCSEs because that was our experience but at a younger age I imagine it might be a more complex decision.

@Piony You can search for schools here. It covers all types of schools. You can filter by special schools and only select certain types of special schools so can focus on independent special schools. Don’t filter by phase of education or type of SEN. Not all schools have this information listed so it can miss some if you use these filters.

If you want to look at the EOTAS/EOTIS route, remember the test for EOTAS/EOTIS is that it is inappropriate for provision to be made in a school rather than there not being a suitable school. They are slightly different tests.

Thanks so much. I admit I do probably have a pre-conceived idea of the specialist school here only because I don’t know of any children like dd who go there. She would do so well in a small class of girls just like her - I wish that existed. She goes to a youth group for autistic girls every week and absolutely thrives there as many of them are just like her.

And to be fair your thing about GCSE is relevant as she’s Y8 now so will be Y9 before we know it. She’s already been writing notes about what options she would like to choose and wondering what she will do after school. I am in Bradford and they are opening a Brit School here (hopefully in 2028) which will be 16+ provision, and that would suit her to a tee.

Thank you, this is all good to know!

@Leafywool after saying I would think carefully about whether an RP would work, I am going to say something that will probably have you thinking make your mind up. Have you looked at Bradford Christian School? It has an autism provision, but, and it is a big but, it isn’t quite the same as the RPs within the state mainstream schools and it is a much, much smaller school. It may be full but it is worth looking at.

I did actually try and contact them when we received the draft EHCP and had a mad panic about having to name our preference. Emailed and called a few times and didn’t get anywhere and I was so stressed I just gave up. We also tried Bingley Grammar (which is actually our closest RP for autism) and it took a lot of nagging to finally get through to them. We did end up looking round there and were toured round in a big group and I didn’t like it at all. Plus they are very over subscribed and the lady who did the tour said they have 1 place for every 15 consultations they get. We actually looked at the mainstream there when we were choosing secondary options and I didn’t like it then either. I can’t even put my finger on why, I just got a weird vibe (which is odd for me as I am also autistic and usually look at everything in a very logical way).

@2x4greenbrick sorry was meant to add I will try again and see if I can get through to them.

@Leafywool some places just do have weird energies. Fwiw, I am both autistic and a bit witchy so I may be a bit biased. But if it feels wrong, maybe it's a bit like the texture of clothes.

And there are some places that have good energies. It's one of the reasons I chose DD's school. It gave me really good vibes.

@Leafywool the school DS is in has a few other satellite sites in the area and they actually ignored all requests to see any of their other settings. They were quite cagey about it. They definitely gave me off vibes.

In terms of being oversubscribed, simply saying they have no space isn't a lawful reason to deny, they would really have to prove they can't simply provide for your child if it went to tribunal. My cousin went through similar and they made the LA go and measure every inch of the school. A lot of schools say they're built for X pupils, actually knowing they can take Y amount of pupils, but with X still remaining their ideal number. In my cousins case she won as last year they had 29 pupils, this year they had 28 but still said they could only fit 20 per classroom, yet their space being huge and open plan.

Obviously being oversubscribed can be an issue for your child if they need a smaller cohort, but I imagine like most places there aren't many specialists that aren't oversubscribed at the moment.

Thanks @2x4greenbrick , I do think though that the LA should publish a full list on its local offer. It doesn't seem a lot to ask.

@Leafywool "which is odd for me as I am also autistic and usually look at everything in a very logical way"

Funnily enough on uni threads it seems common for autistic YP to go more than most on "vibe" when choosing their uni. My eldest certainly did. The analogy to fabric is a good one.

I certainly did.

@ISaySteadyOn how has this week gone for you all? Hope you had some win days

We have had a load of win days for DS. Unfortunately DD has had this wretched virus that is going around. So few wins there. But I did have a productive meeting with school.

@ISaySteadyOn I’m glad the meeting went well.

In terms of being oversubscribed, simply saying they have no space isn't a lawful reason to deny, they would really have to prove they can't simply provide for your child if it went to tribunal.

@Jimmyneutronsforehead that depends on the type of school. Being full isn’t enough of a reason for schools that are wholly independent. The LA has to prove the school is so full placing DC there is incompatible with the efficient education of others or use of resources. But it doesn’t apply to wholly independent schools. They can refuse to offer a place because they are full. They cannot be named unless they offer a place and you can’t appeal for it if they refuse to be named.

Thanks all again for the amazing advice. I emailed the Christian school last night and they got back to me straight away this morning! I did find a different email address to the one I used before summer which was directly to the SENDCO rather than a general office one.

They said the AP is full for Year 8 but from what I’d described with dd she might suit being in the mainstream class with extra support. They have combined classes so Y7 and Y8 are together, and classes are around 20 students so it’s a very small setting. She asked me to send over her EHCP and she would take a look.

I am not sure how it works with the LA and an independent school though, I will need to do some research. We certainly wouldn’t be able to pay the fees.

I also know dd will hate the idea of it being a faith school, and their GCSE offering is very dry compared to the school she had been placed at (she’s very creative, theatre/music artsy type). But it’s definitely worth looking into regardless.

@ISaySteadyOn Excellent news with DS. Sorry to hear dd has been ill though ☹️

You can ask the LA to consult.

Since you are already appealing, you can request to amend the grounds of appeal to appeal section I too. You can do this via a SEND7 - not forgetting to seek the LA’s views first.

In order for the Christian School to be named, they will need to agree to being named because they are wholly independent.

I PM’ed you, but I thought I should let you know in case you use the app.