EBSA support thread 2

[Luddite26]

Hopefully this links to Brambley Hedges EBSA support thread.
A community to discuss the processes and support each other when children are experiencing Emotionally Based School Avoidance.

Thinking of all those with difficult days today x

We ended up going in this morning, but I think it was a good call. He was the only kid there.

There were still a lot of staff as soon as we walked in but I got in there first and said treat him like you would a cat, ignore him, pretend he's not here and he'll crawl on your lap and be your best mate.

He did still ask to go home quite a lot but no tears, dare I even say may have had fun.

I'm not sure what my eyes saw yesterday because there is a big obvious tall perimeter fence around the playground. Questioned my sanity when I got there this morning, like has this fence always been here? Why do I remember short wooden fence posts and why does the floor plan from the planning permission also show short wooden fence posts?

Anyway had a good chat with one of the teachers, she really sees so much potential in him. They're not disillusioned that it was once a nursery and sure start centre and a lot of the features are still for 0-2 year olds whereas their cohort are between 7-10 year olds.

We will be going tomorrow and Friday as well. Just getting ready for his blood test right now, but he's not nervous, he quite likes them 😵‍💫.

Fabulous, well done to him and you @Jimmyneutronsforehead . Hopefully the start of something better.

Oh gosh @Jimmyneutronsforehead I just read both of your posts. What a rollercoaster! I am glad today went better, I bet you were so worried about it last night. The cat thing did make me laugh 😄

2 steps back here unfortunately. I had contact from DD’s new school saying the LA had named their mainstream as DD’s placement, not the RP!! Very frustrating, because that would just totally defeat the object of us going through this whole process. The SEND coordinator at the new school has been amazing and so lovely - he explained the process to me and said they were consulted on both mainstream and RP and responded to both. From the way he wondered it, it sounds like they said yes to both but I assume LA are being dicks and trying to put her in mainstream. He offered to email the caseworker, which he did straight away, and she emailed me to say she has made a panel submission to name the RP as preference before I’d even got a chance to email her myself about it. We won’t hear until week of 29th September though which seems like forever away. I’ve not mentioned anything to dd as there’s no point until I have a solid answer.

Gosh @Leafywool the saga goes on.

I believe (and I'm sure @2x4greenbrick can correct me) that it is completely normal for the mainstream school to be named in Section I for an RP student. If she has provisions listed in Section F that can only be met in the RP, then Sections F and I taken together ARE the "contract" that secures her RP place at the setting.

However if the school said they could meet her needs in MS then it's stickier. The LA does have an obligation to spend its funds efficiently and that includes not using an expensive RP place for a child who does not need it. I would suggest urgently clarifying in writing what the school's responses to both MS and RP consults were.

I would also go back to the EHCP and look for provisions that cannot be met in mainstream. You can ask the SENCo for these now, they shouldn't need to secure the RP funding before she can access them. She is one of theirs now and they need to do best endeavours to give the provisions on her EHCP.

The SENCo must know the process better than I do so apologies if this is way off, but we have never had RP named on an EHCP and there was absolutely no question that DS was an RP student. We've had trouble with LA stumping up for RP places before and always been reassured that it's the Senco's problem, not ours. But the question of whether school said they could meet need in mainstream might be an issue here.

Thank you, that is incredibly useful information! I will get clarification, but I assume they must have said they can meet needs in mainstream if that’s what we’ve ended up with? It’s so frustrating because if a mainstream school could meet her needs we wouldn’t be in this position in the first place. Her old school were extremely supportive and gave us so many adjustments and it still didn’t work for her. We are appealing the EHCP contents regardless as there’s contradictory statements around medical needs and still lots of vague wording.

The SENDCO at the new school said:

‘I've had a look back through emails and we did receive a consultation for both our mainstream and Resourced Provision. The consultations landed with us mid-July.

I received an email from (EHCP Caseworker) on Tuesday 8/10 which stated that DD had a mainstream placement with us in line with parental preference. This unfortunately would not enable DD access to the RP.

Although an RP can't directly be named in Section I of an EHCP, when we receive placement confirmations from the LA, RP places are indicated to us through the communications received.
A consultation response for the RP was also provided to the LA but submitted after the mainstream response as my colleagues in the SRP wrote this on our return to school.’

I don’t know what we will do if they refuse RP. It’s not even a completely separate system to the school, it’s still 80% mainstream classes with 20% intervention. So if she has no access to the RP provision at all, what’s even the point? ☹️

She is still on roll at her old school as this is the first communication I’ve had with the new school - they were making contact to say admissions will be in touch to get some information from us before we figure out a start date, and from that conversation I realised (and confirmed) that the place was mainstream and not RP.

@Leafywool You should check how the ARP is set up and look at the wording in section F too.

Most ARPs are not separate registered institutions and are instead part of the mainstream school they are part of. With DC being on the roll of the mainstream school. A smaller number are satellite units of special schools and DC in these units are on the roll of the special school (sometimes with pupils dual registered with the mainstream school). A very small minority are a separately registered establishments.

In your case, it sounds like the ARP is the first - in that it isn’t a separately registered establishment.

Until earlier this year, case law established that the school should be named in section I (without reference to the ARP) and the provision provided by the ARP included in F (but not naming the specific provider). This is what @Piony has explained. Although some LAs would still name the ARP, but SENDIST would not. Earlier this year, more case law (LL and MM v Telford and Wrekin Council (SEN): [2026] UKUT 129 (AAC) if you are interested) established that in some cases it can be lawful to name the specific unit in F &/or in I alongside the school’s name. Although in many cases it is still just the school named in I rather than the ARP and the provision included in F.

All that to explain that just because the RP isn’t mentioned in I doesn’t mean DD shouldn’t be receiving support from the RP.

However, you should look at F closely. It is likely the LA hasn’t included provision that can only be provided by the RP if they had a positive consultation from the normal mainstream side of things.

@Jimmyneutronsforehead I am glad today went better. How good is DS’s EHCP? It sounds like either the staff haven’t read and understood it or that it isn’t very good.

Thank you @2x4greenbrick brilliant advice as always! You are correct that the ARP is set-up the first way. It has completely thrown me that the SENDCO said in his email that dd having a mainstream placement would not enable her to access the RP.

It’s very confusing to me as in section F of her EHCP, it mentions 25 hours 1:1 support OR enhanced teacher pupil ratio (not more than 1:12) with additional adult support (1:2 or 1:1) up to 15 hours of the week, plus individual support (1:1) during the remaining 10 hours of learning time to deliver individually planned programmes of work including interventions. Then it lists the interventions including an adapted environment to support students with autism/SEMH needs for up to 15 hours a week (I know ‘up to’ is vague and not definitive!), and things such as 1:1 support with aspects of self care, self regulation and communication for 1 hour a day. There’s also mention of 2x 30 minute sessions per week to work on various strategies to help with emotional regulation etc, and access to a low stimulus environment and sensory tools (such as a sensory room) to help regulate sensory needs.

Sorry im just picking out random bits which are jumping out at me as I’m reading through the EHCP. As I said before, we are appealing the contents as we highlighted a lot of vague/non-committal statements and wording, so the above isn’t particularly great but it’s what we have got for now.

I know you may not be able to answer this, but from your experience would you think a school would be able to meet the above with a regular mainstream placement and no access to RP as the SENDCO advised? It reads to me that she requires more than a mainstream placement with some adjustments, and would require the 20% intervention an RP place would offer to be able to meet what’s stated in Section F. But I may be completely wrong as I have no in-depth knowledge about any of this!

Will the SENCo share their responses to the consults with you? If you haven't already seen them they could give you a lot more insight more quickly than trying to reconstruct the reasoning.

@Leafywool you need to look at the exact wording. It is difficult to comment without knowing the exact wording, but I suspect it may not be detailed, specified and quantified enough. It may be more vague and woolly than you realise. ‘Access to’, ‘adult’ and ‘support’ are also too vague.

25hrs 1:1 support can be provided in mainstream. As can interventions.

Depending on the school, it may be that a teacher:pupil ratio of 1:12 can be provided. For example, some schools have a nurture group, transition group, or bottom sets (unless F is worded right, LAs sometimes rely on bottom sets even if it isn’t appropriate academically) with that ratio. And remember a ratio like that isn’t quite the same as saying a class size of max 12.

Of course, it may also be that the wording isn’t detailed, specified and quantified enough and the 25hrs or teacher:pupil ratio wording is too vague to be of use.

Once the LA has responded to your appeal, it may help you to submit SARs to the LA, school and any other professionals/services/agencies involved.

I don't think his EHCP is very good to be honest, but there's a few reasons why I think that's the case.

1. It was written for a very specific environment in his mainstream school. It's hard to write about access for a school when it is just an abstract idea, even if it's been agreed he needs specialist as we just don't know what resources they have and already implement and what's realistic for the school he would be going to.

1. I am also autistic, dyspraxic, have situational mutism and I know my own personal flaw is I find it hard to stress test suggestions. There are things that I wrote as amendments when his EHCP was in the draft phase that made total sense to me and I couldn't actually understand any other ways things could be interpreted. There were parts of his EHCP that were excellent that I'd contributed changes to within his draft and I have failed to see that I've put a lot of energy into some parts but not others as well.

1. There were some really obvious weak points in his EHCP, and when we went to mediation we had both the mediator and LA representative basically on side with eachother and I didn't feel like I had enough knowledge to challenge them. Like if the mediator was agreeing with the LA as an impartial body then it gave reputation to what they were saying if that makes sense. Things like his sleep issues as an example. It's well documented he doesn't sleep, but every request I made to get help for his sleep through our GP meant out of area referrals which kept getting rejected due to out of area referrals exceeding their capacity, me then not being informed, additional barriers to me such as having to make phone calls where I may or may not actually be able to talk or get a coherent sentence out to chase it up, being told a new referral will need to go in and repeating this for 3 years. The LA and mediator had a copy of his patient summary showing years of requests but said that because there was no specialist input they couldn't put provision in his EHCP. Well his sleep affects his energy, regulation, if or when he eats, how much he tolerates, his nutritional deficiencies, his delayed blood clotting etc. We had all the other pieces of the puzzle from dietetics, allergy, paeds, but they refused to allow for provision in a rather large area.

1. We had appealed to tribunal, but instead of emailing me after he was offered a placement to see if we wished to continue as we were appealling more than just the placement they emailed his dad who doesn't live with us but does have parental responsibility and he responded with yep, all fine, so they closed the case.

Just to answer PPs about what his EHCP says about transitions, it does say in section F: must have an individual timetable with planned adult-led structured activities, then goes on to list all of the interventions his SALT recommended, daily, with how many minutes per day need to be spent on these. Not particularly helpful with transitions themselves although some of the interventions were geared towards delaying gratification and increasing time spent on activities before moving on. I actually appealed this, because it isn't very child focused. Didn't disagree with the premise just the way they were going about it. His old school showed me his daily timetable and most of the day was taken up with these interventions which made it very hard for them to try and even offer any sort of other curriculum even if they adapted it.

Another section F was about a personalised visual timetable. It was one of those things I felt couldn't hurt, but knew it wouldn't really work for him. In hindsight, I actually think seeing what comes next can give him anxiety about it, but I don't know what the solution is for a child who struggles with transitions but also struggles about knowing something is coming up when he has very set ideas about what he would actually rather be doing.

In section A there's information about how he struggles both transitioning into and out of activities, and preparation in advance needs to be clear, direct and concise.

There's also information about transitions to and from school holidays, explaining they help him regulate and recover but the shorter breaks don't provide much relief and can be harder for him to remain regulated when returning, he may experience overwhelm, dysregulation or completely withdraw and is often just mistaken for tiredness. Re establishing routines needs to be done carefully and with a trusted adult who understands his verbal and non verbal communication.

Also that he has historically had difficulty settling into school and his regulation difficulties have affected his attendance, and that he has been supported by having his absence marked as emotionally based school avoidance.

I actually talked with his teacher about his EHCP today and I said we might have to call an early annual review, but I came away feeling a bit better about it because she said all of the staff who work with him have input on it rather than just the SENCO of his mainstream primary who barely spent any time with him, but today also feels like a bit of information overload and I don't think I've actually taken it all in. I like that theres 1:2 ratio with the kids, but the changing faces policy might mean that depending on who I talk to about this, they either see or don't see the bits I'm worried about as a parent.

Thanks both @Piony@2x4greenbrick, I’ve emailed the caseworker asking for clarification on what the responses were from the school but I’ll also ask the SENDCO if he is able to share the responses. There’s a lot of vague etc. wording which we’ve flagged in our appeal.

This whole thing has made me feel so naive and a bit stupid. I thought we were finally getting somewhere and dd might be supported and have a chance at going back to school and being happy again. I feel awful because she thinks she’s getting exactly what we saw when we went to look round the school, when in reality she won’t be able to access any of the parts she thinks will help her succeed.

It was written for a very specific environment in his mainstream school. It's hard to write about access for a school when it is just an abstract idea, even if it's been agreed he needs specialist as we just don't know what resources they have and already implement and what's realistic for the school he would be going to.

This isn’t how EHCPs should be written. EHCPs should be written based on the individual child, not written to fit a particular placement, what that placement already has, implements or wants to provide.

sleep issues

No specialist sleep clinic input doesn’t mean there couldn’t be evidence of sleep difficulties. The content of EHCPs is based on evidence, but that evidence does not need to be from a sleep clinic.

Like if the mediator was agreeing with the LA as an impartial body then it gave reputation to what they were saying if that makes sense.

Just because the mediator appeared to side with the LA doesn’t mean that the LA’s decision was lawful.

Appeal

When an appeal is settled after the LA has already responded to the appeal, it is settled by a Consent Order. If the LA got dad to sign this and SENDIST also didn’t communicate with you and you put on the SEND35 it should be you that they communicate with, have you raised this with SENDIST?

In section A there's information about how he struggles both transitioning into and out of activities, and preparation in advance needs to be clear, direct and concise. There's also information about transitions to and from school holidays, explaining they help him regulate and recover but the shorter breaks don't provide much relief and can be harder for him to remain regulated when returning, he may experience overwhelm, dysregulation or completely withdraw and is often just mistaken for tiredness. Re establishing routines needs to be done carefully and with a trusted adult who understands his verbal and non verbal communication. Also that he has historically had difficulty settling into school and his regulation difficulties have affected his attendance, and that he has been supported by having his absence marked as emotionally based school avoidance.

This needs to be in B/F, not A.

Speaking on the phone

As an aside, I know I t doesn’t help everyone, but have you tried Relay UK.

Sorry me again - another thing the SENDCO at the new school said was ‘I have raised the question of EHCP funding with (EHCP caseworker) also, so this is one area that I am in communication with the LA.’

Does anyone know what this means? I don’t really know what he’s talking about/the relevance to our conversation about mainstream vs RP.

@2x4greenbrick I haven't used relay UK, I didn't even know if this was an option for me? I've heard about deaf people using it and I've been on the receiving end of it when I worked in a call centre but I didn't know this was an option for situational mutism at all.

@Leafywool LAs are ultimately responsible for ensuring provision in F is provided. This includes ensuring there is sufficient funding. However, LAs regularly provide insufficient funding. The school will have gone back to the LA about this.

@Jimmyneutronsforehead it’s worth a try. It isn’t only for the Deaf community. Those who struggle to communicate verbally can use it as well. It doesn’t work for everyone with SM, some are still unable to communicate, but some find it helpful.

Thank you. I will look into it. I don't know if it will always be helpful because sometimes it's hard to even think of things to say even when typing but I am a much better typer than I am a talker.

@Jimmyneutronsforehead if you try it, you might find it helpful to type out some things you know you will be asked in advance. Say if you know you are going to be asked name, address, DOB and the call is to discuss DS’s sleep difficulties, you can type out your/DS’s details and a blurb about DS’s sleep difficulties in advance. You might want/need to add a little at the time but it means you aren’t put completely on the spot from nothing. This means there isn’t the same time pressure and you can also re-read a bit later and edit it.

@Leafywool and @Jimmyneutronsforehead don't lose sight of what a huge amount you've achieved to get where you are today with this. You're just in the process still, not at the end of it. It's like when the LA rejects first requests for EHCNA out of hand - it doesn't mean the child's needs do not meet the criteria, it "just" means there is another hurdle placed which you have to (and will) get over. It is not your fault when other people add extra barriers.

@Leafywool the reference to the money will be some negotiation on how much the LA will pay for her place probably. Not your problem. It's part of the SENCo's job to secure the funding needed, which may not align exactly with standardised packages & budgets. He may be fighting for extra funding. I think a lot of this will come down to whether the SENCo thinks DD needs MS or RP. If he thinks MS will do it then listen to why he thinks that and have at your fingertips provisions that you think might be hard to meet in MS. The more you know the better you can argue a convincing case. But also mainstreams are not all the same. Ours, the one with the RP, also had 2 different sorts of nurture room communities with their own specialist teams, and children did move between them and the RP depending on their needs. The level of understanding from class teachers was also completely different to that at the previous Outstanding school. But, if she has already looked round the RP and the SENCo thinks she needs RP, and all the conversation has been around RP then you may be very close to making RP happen.

@Jimmyneutronsforehead I hope stay and play goes well today. It sounds like your input was incredibly useful yesterday and it's promising that they listened. If they can create a psychologically safe space for him - and I think a lot of that is in the quality of the relationships between adults and child - you have a solid starting point.

Thank you @Piony that’s really kind of you to say and good advice. I was spiralling yesterday!

The caseworker has sent me the response for both the mainstream and RP from the school and they have said they can’t meet needs on both, so I have no idea what’s going on. How can a school which have said cannot meet her needs be named on her EHCP? I assume this is just what happens but it just makes the whole process seem completely pointless.

We went again this morning and I'm having a too good to be true sensation.

I even got to go and have a cup of tea while he spent some one on one time with his teachers and there was no kicking and screaming or begging to leave.

It also seems like they've extended the days across today and tomorrow just for DS, or at least the mornings because we haven't seen another child for the past 2 visits.

I've no doubt in the morning he will say he doesn't want to go though, and might even take his clothes off and all the other delaying tactics he's gotten pretty good at, but I have no doubt if they keep it up then he will eventually settle in.

We had a chat about how we can keep his lunch accessible, they're going to keep drinks and snacks in each child's tray so bags aren't in the way but he can just grab what he needs when he needs it. Only rule is no peanuts which isn't hard for us as we're a legume and nut free household with no plans to change that anytime soon.

@Jimmyneutronsforehead that is lovely to hear!!!

I skim read the schools consultation response as I was on the train but just gone back and read through properly. The school have said it’s too large and busy for DD’s EBSA and sensory profile, they don’t have the staffing capacity to deliver what’s specified in section F of her EHCP without taking away that provision from other students at the school who have an EHCP. They also say that the RP is split between mainstream and specialist and the hours/support stated in her EHCP indicate that she would need greater time in RP than they offer. Which are all fair points, but also they didn’t tick to say we had visited, and they said they haven’t consulted her current setting either.

I do have a meeting with the SENDCO at the new school on Tuesday so I’m hoping he can explain things a bit more for me. But if we’d not challenged this, would the expectation have been that dd would start there technically as a ‘mainstream’ student, repeat the same thing that happened at her old school and be back to square 1 unable to attend school again?

A school for a bright an academic child that can fulfill the support stated on her EHCP seemingly doesn’t exist 😵‍💫