Human beings weren’t designed to be independent so why are we forced to be?

[Buttercupsandpoppys]

I always prided myself on being independent. From 18 I went to uni, got a job, bought a house on my own etc. Being so independent has always been important to me and is seen as such a virtue in society.

Yet now I’ve had 2 kids and a DP I’ve come to realise that actually humans are meant to be dependant on eachother. I’ve been very blessed with lots of friends/family and I’ve relied on them so much over these past 2 years since my first was born.

I’ve also had a realisation on what a breakdown in society we have. Due to encouraging independence we’ve also shamed people for being dependent (disabled, elderly etc).

But humans are not made to be independent. We NEED others. If we have illness we need someone medical to treat us. If we have a child we need someone to either physically look after them whilst we work or to provide so we don’t have to work and can physically look after them.
We need shelter so we need someone to employ us or if self employed then to use our service.

Humans literally need other humans. But it’s drummed into us to never be dependent.

I’m currently on mat leave with my second baby and the amount of struggling mothers I’ve met at playgroups that don’t have any support outside of their DP is so sad.
Even the ones who have local friends wouldn’t ever ring a friend and ask for help unless it was a dire emergency because otherwise they worry they’d be seen as cheeky or struggling. Yet it’s entirely normal to need help because humans were made to live in communities and rely on eachother. It’s literally in our DNA to live in packs for the very reason of helping eachother. But it’s actively discouraged to be dependant in anyway shape or form.

I wondered why this is, and I think maybe capitalism? The less of a community there is and shame in asking for help, then the more insular people become yet because we need humans we now have to pay to have that need met(whilst thinking we’re independent yet still depending on others).

Does anyone else know why independence is so massively encouraged and dependency of any kind so shameful nowadays?

You've been very blessed with a family who helps you.

I wasn't.

Now you're crowing about it?

Weird thread.

Way to rub salt into the wound. Why not just be grateful for the support you had instead of judging others?

Btw, I wouldn't have felt 'shame' at asking for help from my family if they weren't paedophiles.

Does anyone else know why independence is so massively encouraged and dependency of any kind so shameful nowadays?

This is pure projection.

Dependency of any kind may be shameful in your circles but it's certainly not in mine

Paying for a service (childcare) or needing payment in return for your labour (a paid job) isn't the same as being dependant.

You're talking about depending on family and friends/community. Great if you have it, many don't.

Good question! I think we might have a sense of fairness and so while mutual support is acceptable, dependency might be seen as taking without reciprocating. People aren’t always kind in such situations. I agree with you though, that we are social beings and we can all benefit when we give and accept help as and when it’s needed.

I think a lot of it can be traced back to individualism within western cultures. Collectivist cultures place a much stronger emphasis on family and this translates to children staying close to their parents, living nearby to them for example, and having a much closer relationship with extended family as well.

I think that’s the main reason we struggle more. Families are more spread out and there is a shame attached (by some, not all) in asking for a favour. It’s weird and quite self-destructive.

I agree OP.

I had years of no support with high needs children, it was hell, but it was almost viewed as me being lazy/useless/weak for struggling, rather than the reality, that things were consistently hard with no help whatsoever.

You're right that typically, humans have evolved to live in groups, and in western societies this is now, sadly, rare.

I remember reading a similar thread here years ago discussing this, and there were posters who felt that there was a deliberate break down of families (I actually think it was a Call the Midwife thread, talking about how close knit families were broken up when tenements were destroyed), mainly affecting working class poor people. Iirc there was very much a capitalist edge to it. Interesting topic.

Some people don't really have a choice. Not everyone has people around them or people they can trust.

I agree. I didn't have any support when I had my dc other than dh and I was lonely and really struggled. My dh is from a country where they really look after each other. I'm pretty sure I suffered with pnd because of lack of support.

My family would be pretty rubbish at supporting me for the most part.

But life would be better for so many if there was still an “it takes a village” attitude. I didn’t have a choice because society changed in the last few decades, and I don’t think the changes have been wholly positive.

I wish people did too but I don't know if its possible to get that back today. I guess we have to make our own village as best we can.

Well said op. I don't think you're crowing.

I didn't and still don't have much support outside our family unit and I also recognise what you describe.

I think society has changed so that it is very common to be disconnected from people choose by who you would consider to be your community in a 'could call on them if you need to' way. My family and friends are all scattered all over the place and that's not unusual.

If you have support that's lovely, and if you don't feel shame for needing support that's also lovely. But I agree that's not the theme in society generally.

The thing is that if you have "a village" it's a two way street, you have to give as well as take, I find most people, especially younger are much keener on taking than giving!

A quick glance at Mumsnet demonstrates just how many people resent their families, hate their neighbours, kick out their partners and quite frankly would prefer to be miles from anyone (as long as there's good WiFi and Deliveroo

I can't stand that whole "It takes a village" thing. The happiest times in my life were when I was most independent.

You are confusing different levels of independence. None of us are independent, unless we are living off grid growing our own food. We are all part of society. That is the way we are designed to be. But the striving for independence that is seen as desirable is for independence WITHIN that. As in, providing for ourselves and contributing as fair level to society

Sorry if it’s comes across as a brag or something it’s really not meant to be it’s more as a point of discussion regarding how I myself have been dependant because I needed help. I am fortunate to have it but this is the thing. I shouldn’t be ‘fortunate’ because it should be the norm.

There is such a breakdown in society. It’s unnatural for a woman to give birth, only have her husband for 14 days and then be left entirely on her own. Sore from birth, still bleeding and left with a baby day in/day out. My friend from Egypt I met on my first maternity was horrified at the lack of support and had really bad PND. She didn’t expect family of course living in a different country. But said in Egypt, neighbours would ensure the mothers had food, if someone local was a nurse they’d informally pop over to check etc. But here if you run out of food you’d need to order and pay delivery even for a bottle of milk if incapacitated. Many wouldn’t ask a neighbour as they wouldn’t even have their telephone number to call in the first place. Then many wouldn't call/text a friend to ask who lived a bit further afield from fear of coming across as cheeky and entitled.

Someone up thread said it’s only seen as okay to ask for help if it’s reciprocal/mutually beneficial in some way otherwise it’s seen as cheeky/grabby. I agree.

I just don’t think it’s natural for humans.

The thing is, we have a village. All of us. We have the NHS, we have police, we have schools. All of us do

I'm a bit torn on this. Yes, we do need other people - humans are social creatures and we are also vulnerable at various times and need others to take care of us.
But it's also a really good feeling to know that you can take care of yourself - if help is lacking, then you are still capable of digging yourself out of a sticky situation and can manage your own life.

I guess independence is valued because without it none of us would have the skills to be the helper in any given situation - we can't all be reliant on receiving assistance, or who would be giving that help?

@Buttercupsandpoppys I’m interested to know where you hear things saying that?

I find that if there’s any problems, I am asked, “have you got support” and no - I don’t have any support.

And as well as the awfulness of having no support, it makes me feel like a freak to the person asking me. and community appears to have vanished in many places.

@combinationpadlock But I think that’s the thing. I think we are meant to be dependent in all manner of ways. When we’re old, when we’re babies, if we’ve had babies, if we’re ill, if we’re lonely etc.

We are dependant beings and need each other. I don’t see why the common mantra of ‘I don’t need anyone’ is so encouraged. It’s really unhealthy.

@mitogoshi agreed it’s a two way street. your right in that being pride themselves on being fine in solitude. Which is fine for a period of time. But actually unnatural to the human form. I think the individualistic mindset of western society will be our downfall.

I'd have loved some help or even a listening ear when my kids were tiny but I was all alone. Dp worked long hours with a long commute and my local in laws didn't want to be involved. My family lived far away & sister made it clear that I wasn't to ask dm for help. So I didn't ask my dm for help and managed somehow although sometimes it nearly killed me.

Good question.
I remember reading something about the first evidence of "civilisation" being a healed bone. In that someone had broken theit leg and had been fed and cared for and allowed to heal until the bone knitted back together. Looking after those who need it is a fundamental part of humanity.

However selfishness and self-interest are also a fundamental part of our nature and some people will always take advantage and take more help than they really need.

Perhaps having some cultural element of "shame" helps to prevent people from taking advantage, and ensuring that help is reserved for those who most need it?

@EmeraldRoulette im sorry to hear of your lack of support. It’s awful and shouldn’t be that way.

It’s funny how society contradicts itself. Ask someone to lend you a hand and are seen as cheeky/entitled. You see it all the time. People labelled as grabby or entitled. But then in the same breath asked ‘where’s your support?’ When asking for said help. It’s not nice.

But this is a two edged sword - blah blah it takes a village but as a PP said - her family had child abusers in.

what happened in these villages when a woman wanted to leave her husband due to abuse. Well she couldn’t. Sooooo I don’t think the past was all bread and roses.

yes it is hard now without family help. But no, you don’t have to put up with creepy uncle Kevin who no one trusts…..

I do think it's important to be independent, especially financially. Solely relying on other people can leave you feeling trapped in a situation you may no longer want to be in, I see it all of the time on here.