Human beings weren’t designed to be independent so why are we forced to be?

[Buttercupsandpoppys]

I always prided myself on being independent. From 18 I went to uni, got a job, bought a house on my own etc. Being so independent has always been important to me and is seen as such a virtue in society.

Yet now I’ve had 2 kids and a DP I’ve come to realise that actually humans are meant to be dependant on eachother. I’ve been very blessed with lots of friends/family and I’ve relied on them so much over these past 2 years since my first was born.

I’ve also had a realisation on what a breakdown in society we have. Due to encouraging independence we’ve also shamed people for being dependent (disabled, elderly etc).

But humans are not made to be independent. We NEED others. If we have illness we need someone medical to treat us. If we have a child we need someone to either physically look after them whilst we work or to provide so we don’t have to work and can physically look after them.
We need shelter so we need someone to employ us or if self employed then to use our service.

Humans literally need other humans. But it’s drummed into us to never be dependent.

I’m currently on mat leave with my second baby and the amount of struggling mothers I’ve met at playgroups that don’t have any support outside of their DP is so sad.
Even the ones who have local friends wouldn’t ever ring a friend and ask for help unless it was a dire emergency because otherwise they worry they’d be seen as cheeky or struggling. Yet it’s entirely normal to need help because humans were made to live in communities and rely on eachother. It’s literally in our DNA to live in packs for the very reason of helping eachother. But it’s actively discouraged to be dependant in anyway shape or form.

I wondered why this is, and I think maybe capitalism? The less of a community there is and shame in asking for help, then the more insular people become yet because we need humans we now have to pay to have that need met(whilst thinking we’re independent yet still depending on others).

Does anyone else know why independence is so massively encouraged and dependency of any kind so shameful nowadays?

@Itsjustmeheretoday agree! I think loneliness has contributed massively to our increase in poor mental health at a population level.

People are so isolated. It’s not right that it’s been normalised to only focus on your own ‘little family’ with the only other adult being your DP. You can’t just depend on one person entirely for friendship/support/companionship/assistance and no one else.

Also social policing despite having downsides (gossiping) actually has a lot of value in many circumstances. People can pick up on things not being right at home. Community noticing if a child is being neglected or wife abused etc. Others seeing if someone’s mental health has dipped and their once was clean home is suddenly becoming hoarded and dirty when popping in for a drink. These things although now seen as intrusive (and can be!) were actually protective factors for a lot of people.

I totally agree OP, what is expected particularly of new mums is insane. People in many cultures spend weeks recovering where everyone helps run the household or minds the kids, the priority is getting a good milk supply and ensuring baby is feeding. In fact my gran said in 1940s she spent two weeks in hospital recovering, with no medical needs. We don't ask for help, we are seen as weak if we do. And even when people offer help we don't take it, therefore people don't offer. If everyone had rallied around me i wouldn't mind paying it back, cooking a few meals for a neighbour oe minding a child for a while would be worth the trade off. I'm all for living independently in other ways but I feel this is one area where western culture has failed miserably.

The two weeks in hospital when the NHS came in was a leftover from the ancient practice of lying in to try and stop new mothers dying. It was really bad that the NHS did this as they actively discouraged breastfeeding by taking babies away to the nursery. Breastfeeding rates plummeted.
The other reason for keeping new mums and babies in was that there were still people living in slums. Most people did not have inside toilets and many still had no running water, with water fetched from a well. So homes were not always that hygenic.

Good question. I think that the modern take on the village has moved on due to changes in society driven by capitalism.

There are positives e.g. If your village is toxic you can now walk away much more easily. The downside is that you are left with no free support and you need to be in the position to be able to buy in services that would have been free in previous years and you have to build a new/better village around you.

In my experience the word friend is banded about too easily. Most people are really acquaintances, true friends will support you during your downs as well as your ups and these bonds are not created until you have been through hard times. If you have experience of people letting you down or abusing your friendship you tend to be less likely to turn to people if you need help.

A more alarming outcome of the reduction of the traditional village is the rise of loneliness and mental health. Not sure what the answer is aside from making it the norm to attend more social groups, so people with similar interests can meet up and increase social interaction.

I'd agree with this to an extent, but I'd also contend that modern society provides us with means to ameliorate that reliance somewhat, and pre-plan to avoid the necessity of others having to be involved when things do indeed go wrong.

I don't need to worry about who will step up in certain respects, because I've taken measures to ensure the possibility is dealt with pre-emptively, so I just don't have the worry and resultant effect on my mental health.

Oddly enough, it was unreliable people that I knew I couldn't trust that drove me to become independent, and made me realise that if I wanted peace of mind, I had to take steps to account for certain possibilities myself. It also precludes the scenario whereby someone has told you they will step up, or at least, you believe they will, then when push actually comes to shove they let you down.

Generally speaking, my mental health has improved the more I have removed my reliance on others, and I know for certain that the one person who absolutely will not let me down is myself. Is it a "trust issue"? Well perhaps partly, but I'd still contend that my self-reliance provides a degree of confidence and surety that I simply would not have if I had left certain things to the hope that someone else would step up.

I don't think it's as simple as a "village" being helpful for absolutely everyone regardless of circumstance. Sometimes the village is either unreliable, toxic, or the misplaced reliance on the village stepping up is what ultimately leads to being left up the creek without a paddle. I far prefer being my own village.

So op how much help do you give others? And no I am not talking your partner and children

It is true that a village is sometimes unreliable. I remember when studying history reading village sermons by the local ministers when the village had totally neglected someone in need and there had been tragic outcomes.

She's already given plenty of examples of this, about 10 posts before yours

Because humans also tend to preference themselves - survival of the fittest, and dependency can lead to abuse and independence can help to ensure your freedom from that.

That's because they're not coming to help, even if they say they are! They're coming to visit for their own desires. They don't want to act as carer for the new mum. They want to fuss over the baby, monopolise it, parent the baby in a style the actual parents don't want the baby parented, dish out unwanted and unsuitable advice and get cross when it's ignored, and be waited on hand and foot as a guest in the home. They're not a help, they're a PITA and an additional chore.

The "village" thing only works when there's no toxicity. Unfortunately there often is toxicity in someone's "village" network. I don't think people were any happier generally in the past with their "village" than they are now. Individual people may be, but lots would have been equally as unhappy or more so than today without their "village".

As for social isolation, the majority of people are intrinsically selfish IME. They don't want to help with anything at all. They want to do what they want to do and they want you to do it with them, if you can't they lose interest in you. That being the case, why bother putting effort in? I used to for the purposes of building and maintaining friendships (which I can do, no problems) but these days I CBA, I found it wasn't worth it. I do what everyone does now, I'm friends with a few people who it's convenient to be friends with because their schedules sort of fit mine and I enjoy their company and we like doing the same things.

Agreed entirely OP.

The defensive replies on this thread kinda prove your point!

I agree completely. I also feel like it's something that has increased over years. I grew up in a community where parents helped each other out. People checked in on the elderly etc. where I live there's nothing like that and I am definitely villageless

So you have been extremely fortunate with lots of people to help you, but no mention of where you have helped other people.
This is the problem lots of people are willing to take but not many are willing to help.
Why don’t you go out and help people?

Any form of dependence is definitely shamed in the nurseries my dc went to! I think the op is right. I often thought “but they are 2 or 3: why is “ being independent” the key goal here? Why not kindness or developing trust etc.?” Of course in that setting it is so that the staff get an easier job. But these attitudes start early and I agree with op that it isn’t the desideratum it is held up as and I do think itbinstils a deep sense of shame about being in any way “needy.”

I am sorry to hear of the stories here of people who were better off without their family. That’s genuinely heartbreaking and must be very difficult. But I don’t think op means to crow; I think she’s saying we need to remove barriers to people feeling it’s ok to ask for - and indeed to need - help.

So many threads on here of NC and I do think society has become quite intolerant. I am NOT referring to abuse or other severe instances , but more to annoying MIL who doesn’t cook Christmas dinner that DIL would ideally like so everyone says “ just don’t go” etc. There’s a glorication of “ one strike and you’re out” philosophy as though that’s the thing a strong woman does,

I agree with you op. I suppose it’s encouraged so that people are not vulnerable because not everyone has that social network or is trustworthy. If you do, nurture it. I agree with you there’s definitely a social breakdown- if you read the anxious generation book it talks about this and how it’s contributing to the rise in MH crises in young people.

Did it start from the Thatcher era? She famously said that there's no such thing as society.

Until the Enlightenment, individuality wasn’t a concept for most - the idea of independence is relatively new.

It's not so the staff get an easier job! In nurseries the kind of independent they mean is starting to put their own coat on by themselves, or going to the toilet rather than wearing a nappy! That's not what the OP is talking about! What a strange comparison. Also, kindness and sharing and helping others are very much part of the Early Learning Goals.

I totally get what you're saying OP.

Building a network around you is something I would urge every new mum to try and do- especially if they don't have family support. Building a net work can take years, some trial and error and is easier for some than others. I wish someone had told me this when I had a new baby, rather than me trying to demonstrate how independent I was and could manage with nobody's help. You live and learn.

This. I had no family support because I left home at 18 to go to university far away from my family home, and then built my career here. I could have an interesting and exciting career (and ultimately met my husband here) or I could have stayed home for “family support” but with far poorer personal opportunities.

Very good post, OP. We are meant to have a support network whether that is friends, family, the community or paid help and it's ok to rely on people. Independence is very much over promoted and yes it is capitalism that would like us to be good little machines and not need or do human being stuff like fall ill or get old.

I’m not sure it is a strange comparison and no, that is not the only type of independence at the nursery I am speaking of. It also involves not reaching out for help when things go wrong.

It isn’t polite to dismiss other posters by saying their comparisons are ” strange.” The point I was making was that some of these approaches lay the attitudinal groundwork for people to be more accepting later on of the sorts of independence op is meaning - which actually aren’t really so very different other than contextually: adult challenges vs small child challenges,

It's a really good point to make.

It's a western cultural thing.

I've read that in Japanese nurseries children are praised for showing dependence on other children. It's valued as a quality/behaviour. This is mind blowing to me as a Brit.

So now people can't disagree without being called "defensive"? I think that the OP and pro village people in general need to be reminded of is that every social pro comes with its own con and what some people have always done is looked at the options and made choices. Sometimes those choices have worked well and sometimes they haven't....also our choices change...contraception, WFH, supermarket deliveries, frozen food, cars and planes, the internet.....loads of things offer us different choices. When those choices didn't exist, for many people, the village was the best choice....now I am not so sure.

Are they praised for dependence or co operation?