Human beings weren’t designed to be independent so why are we forced to be?

[Buttercupsandpoppys]

I always prided myself on being independent. From 18 I went to uni, got a job, bought a house on my own etc. Being so independent has always been important to me and is seen as such a virtue in society.

Yet now I’ve had 2 kids and a DP I’ve come to realise that actually humans are meant to be dependant on eachother. I’ve been very blessed with lots of friends/family and I’ve relied on them so much over these past 2 years since my first was born.

I’ve also had a realisation on what a breakdown in society we have. Due to encouraging independence we’ve also shamed people for being dependent (disabled, elderly etc).

But humans are not made to be independent. We NEED others. If we have illness we need someone medical to treat us. If we have a child we need someone to either physically look after them whilst we work or to provide so we don’t have to work and can physically look after them.
We need shelter so we need someone to employ us or if self employed then to use our service.

Humans literally need other humans. But it’s drummed into us to never be dependent.

I’m currently on mat leave with my second baby and the amount of struggling mothers I’ve met at playgroups that don’t have any support outside of their DP is so sad.
Even the ones who have local friends wouldn’t ever ring a friend and ask for help unless it was a dire emergency because otherwise they worry they’d be seen as cheeky or struggling. Yet it’s entirely normal to need help because humans were made to live in communities and rely on eachother. It’s literally in our DNA to live in packs for the very reason of helping eachother. But it’s actively discouraged to be dependant in anyway shape or form.

I wondered why this is, and I think maybe capitalism? The less of a community there is and shame in asking for help, then the more insular people become yet because we need humans we now have to pay to have that need met(whilst thinking we’re independent yet still depending on others).

Does anyone else know why independence is so massively encouraged and dependency of any kind so shameful nowadays?

I don't think this is true really. It's still the norm to get married and have children. There's still quite a lot of social pressure to do so. That is creating a family unit where people are dependant on each other. Yes, it's wise for women to have jobs so that they will have a means of supporting themselves if the relationship goes wrong, but that doesn't mean 'Don't support each other or depend on each other for support', does it?

@OpizpuHeuvHiyo I think humans in general are naturally independent where they can be. If we’re hungry we’ll cook ourselves some food, we’ll go to work, do our own shopping etc.

In other countries where community is strong and help expected from eachother then people do look after themselves but others too where/when needed.

It’s not an accident that for almost all of human history we lived as tribal groups, supporting each other.

It was only when feminists decided to try and destroy the nuclear family things started to change.

It’s literally in our DNA to live in packs for the very reason of helping eachother.

It's lovely to think of people living together in nice groups of caring, sharing mutual co-operation, but human nature has always been at odds with such idealism. The reality is that, for thousands of years, people competed with violence and fought for their own interests. Others were forced to live together in large groups for physical protection - mainly embodied in the gender roles of men protecting women. That's really where group dependence originated.

That changed with the evolution of the modern state where people were afforded protection by the state which evolved power structures, laws of property and personal protection, and the legal machinery to enforce those rights.

All of those things allowed people much greater freedom which you're misrepresenting as somehow forcing them in to independence.

Your post touches more on the trend towards people living more insular lives which happens for a whole variety of reasons. In the recent past perhaps people were forced to be dependent on others out of necessity rather than choice. If people have the freedom to be independent, many would choose that over reliance on others.

I think the village thing is fine if you comply with what the village wants...so eg no moving away, men have their tasks, women have theirs, limits on higher education, marry within your class, no leaving an abusive spouse, touch your cap to the squire...... because as soon as people can choose where to live and what jobs to have, the village crumbles. I absolutely get that the OP meant a modern village but people don't stay in one place now to build those connections snd that is a function of education and social mobility.

For almost all of human history we’ve been tribal creatures. Humans have never really been independent as it’s a very poor survival strategy.

How did feminists try and destroy the nuclear family?

This is a good point.

Of course everyone wants a nice village.

But in reality, it will be a mixed bag. There are certain types you wouldn't want to be part of your village.

I blame capitalism myself

Hahaha

Someone pointed out to me once that 'the village' is usually women, meaning more women doing more unpaid labour to tow the line but keep everything ticking along just so.

I support the Village concept but this is a good observation indeed.

It was only when feminists decided to try and destroy the nuclear family things started to change

Wait what? The nuclear family is not a tribe. When feminists took issue with nuclear families in the 70s they were arguing that in nuclear families wives are totally reliant on their husband which make them vulnerable to abuse. The argument was for more communal living so that women have more support not total independence.

This. And now there's a man popped up on Mumsnet to blame feminism.

You couldn't make it up.

Well, it would be if you didn’t have free healthcare, the possibility of paid for childcare, or had to rely on the others in your tribe to bring in food when you were incapacitated etc. In some cultures, you absolutely still need your ‘tribe’, while in others, government benefits, services and/or your ability to pay for deliveries, childcare, old age care etc means you don’t.

What I do see on Mn disproportionately is that many posters can’t or won’t engage with other people, struggle with making or maintaining relationships (though they often managed to find a spouse to build a household to retreat inside), and put a lot of energy into keeping their lives as unpeopled as possible.

Lots of people over the years have had to move for work. More people go to uni and decide to settle in the university city/town.
In the past when Granny/grandad was becoming frail, they would move in with one of their children for their final years.(not so much dementia back then, most people didn't live long enough).
Families are much more spread out now, when I was growing up, my grandparents and great grandparents lived close by, as did my aunts and uncles, so there was always help on hand. Society has changed so much over the past few decades, many women didn't work or worked part time so fewer children went to nursery.
Society has changed radically but not necessarily for the better

I think capitalism has a lot to do with it - why have multi-generational living, when you should all want your own house? Why have one car for 3 or 4 people, when you should all want your own one?
I heard something about this starting back with the village bread oven, and the push to get everyone wanting their own oven and this was the beginning of the real community / village / one family way of being.

I think you are taking the concept of 'independence' to the extreme.
Of course one needs others to be employed - that's not what most people mean.
And of course one doesn't expect a child to be independent.
But the ability to make one's own decisions and dictate the course of their life without relying on the financial support of others - I think that's what most people mean. Not about living in a vacuum. We still rely on teachers and friends.
The fact remains that most people are NOT independent, despite what they may think.
Generally, that high salary CEO relies on a partner to do the life admin and home/child care.
Sure there are some people who do not rely on another. My DH died suddenly when my kids were small. I had no help. But I did have his life insurance to help house us and let me keep working part time, so in a sense had support from beyond the grave, at least financially. But not emotionally.
Whether humans are made to be independent or not is hardly relevant. Sure it's great if we all had a loving partner, a generation above to offer guidance and support etc, enough financial earnings to buy what ever rise I've needs (childcare, cleaners, support staff) but many people do not have that and get on with their lives regardless.
I want my children to not be reliant on another for their physical wellbeing, I know of more than one woman who would leave their husband if they felt they could survive financially. It's terrible that they feel trapped. I think that's what people really mean about being independent.

I don't think we're forced to be, people choose to be. Other cultures aren't like this, but they're also much more tolerant. Look how many people on here who are willing to cut off a family or friend for the smallest thing. No one is willing to go out of their way slightly for someone else, therefore it isn't reciprocated. It's very much how people have chosen to be. There is no community.

I don’t mean the dependency thing as a man/woman thing. I’m meaning more general terms in regards to support.

I actually think that the modern way of living although much better in many ways has a certain structure detrimental to women due to lack of community. We now move around more geographically. But due to more insular/individualistic lifestyles don’t form close connections in the community and with neighbours. Women are often physically left holding the baby or want to leave when shit hits the fan. But often they then have no family/close friends nearby. So when single really are often alone in all sense of the word. Plus like I posted up thread so many women even with supportive partners give birth and then become isolated from society in many ways.

In real life and on here so many women want to leave their DPs for whatever reason but then say they have no/little support which makes the practicalities so much harder.

Financially they may even be fine and independent but other ways entirely alone and loneliness is a killer.

I completely agree with you OP. I'm a bit surprised at some of the responses. It's quite sad really to see some of the views. It should not be normal for a new mum to be left on her own to care for her baby and herself when she is newly post partum. In some cultures women pretty much stay in bed for the first month and care for their baby whilst family, (usually women right enough), care for the new mum, and that to me sounds so much more civilised than our way of doing things.

I agree with this completely after having a baby and have also noticed how so many people from other cultures have their mother or MIL come to stay with them often for a month or more. I've also noticed on here, if a mother or God forbid a MIL even wants to visit they are often pushed away (with most MNers supporting that). It's a completely different attitude

I'm not sure that I entirely agree with the full analysis - independence is a good thing but there are times when we need each other more too. I do fully agree on the demise of community though.

I'm not sure that either extreme is healthy. I couldn't imagine anything worse than staying in bed for a month just because I'd had a baby.

@mondaytosunday so sorry about your loss. Glad you were financially covered.

For your other points, this is what I mean when I talk about capitalism. All those things are paid for services. Broke your leg and need some bread and milk totalling £2.60? Don’t be cheeky and ask next door if they can pop to the corner shop down the road. Thats entitled! Plus you don’t have their number anyway. Instead be independent and pay a delivery service for £4.99 and now you’ve spent £7.60 etc.

The need for other humans at the most basic level is now actually a product and we’re socially pressured to use that product due to this breakdown in society.