Human beings weren’t designed to be independent so why are we forced to be?

[Buttercupsandpoppys]

I always prided myself on being independent. From 18 I went to uni, got a job, bought a house on my own etc. Being so independent has always been important to me and is seen as such a virtue in society.

Yet now I’ve had 2 kids and a DP I’ve come to realise that actually humans are meant to be dependant on eachother. I’ve been very blessed with lots of friends/family and I’ve relied on them so much over these past 2 years since my first was born.

I’ve also had a realisation on what a breakdown in society we have. Due to encouraging independence we’ve also shamed people for being dependent (disabled, elderly etc).

But humans are not made to be independent. We NEED others. If we have illness we need someone medical to treat us. If we have a child we need someone to either physically look after them whilst we work or to provide so we don’t have to work and can physically look after them.
We need shelter so we need someone to employ us or if self employed then to use our service.

Humans literally need other humans. But it’s drummed into us to never be dependent.

I’m currently on mat leave with my second baby and the amount of struggling mothers I’ve met at playgroups that don’t have any support outside of their DP is so sad.
Even the ones who have local friends wouldn’t ever ring a friend and ask for help unless it was a dire emergency because otherwise they worry they’d be seen as cheeky or struggling. Yet it’s entirely normal to need help because humans were made to live in communities and rely on eachother. It’s literally in our DNA to live in packs for the very reason of helping eachother. But it’s actively discouraged to be dependant in anyway shape or form.

I wondered why this is, and I think maybe capitalism? The less of a community there is and shame in asking for help, then the more insular people become yet because we need humans we now have to pay to have that need met(whilst thinking we’re independent yet still depending on others).

Does anyone else know why independence is so massively encouraged and dependency of any kind so shameful nowadays?

From my lived experience, most people do this.

Yes exactly this, individualism and capitalism, things like screens and cars and western avoidance wrapped up in consumerism have broken down community and many of the naturally supportive relationships we would have. Back in the day you'd live near the people you worked with, you'd socialise close to home, you'd know you're shop keeper well, you'd be part of a congregation, clubs etc neighbours all around would be friends, the old lady would mind the baby for you, you'd take in her washing. But we drive everywhere now, we work from home or futher away, we sit in front of screens instead of going to the social club we go to faceless supermarkets and we don't go to church. Even when we are close to family it would be rare for us to live on the same street or in the same house within western culture, we would find that intense or too much although it would make living so much easier for many. We think it's wrong to feel struggles stress or unhappiness, we take pills or go to therapy to replace the support all of our many relationships of the past would have given us. Collectivist cultures are vastly different and think of a much wider greater good, the goals are different, the independence you talk about is not prized, if you do well you help the family and they benefit.

I'm very independent and it's all I've ever known. I've never needed the village (outside professional services and social contact) to support me in parenting and never really wanted it. Oddly enough, I do have a more collectivist mentality though. I'm inclined to be very supportive and generous with others. However, I am much less so than I would like to be because, as someone else mentioned, the world is full of takers and I have found many of them. Too many people take the mickey when they know someone is helpful so I'll stick with my independence, saving my generosity for family and genuine friends.

That's good to hear, mine too. I'm finding some of the responses on here extremely depressing

I agree.

I'm from a religion/culture where community and communal life are prized. We're very involved in each others' lives, and nobody is left out. The average life expectancy is older (many people I know have lived to see their 100th birthday and beyond) and I attribute it to this mentality.

yup, I said similar (but shorter and less well written) earlier in the thread and there has also been mention of "the viiage" actually being the work of women. I'd love to know how old the OP is because, as the article says, i think there is quite a lot of rose coloured glass around the village concept....not just spectacles, whole bloody wondows!. My father was an orphan and my mother was the oldest child in her family so there wasn't a great deal of "village" surrounding us although there was a community based around the local primary school and church that co ordinated informal help and support. My late husband though.....his family on his mother's side were village through and through. Yes she got the support but the crab bucket too. She was thought to have married outside her class but it was still just about ok because she still lived in a council flat. The way she raised her sons was definitely not approved of (11+ grammar school and college instead of out to work at 16) and when, after many years of being a widow she met a lovely man who was a country pub landlord, they disowned her because that was WAY outside what the village thought was right.

No one is "independent". You at least needed a mother/woman to feed you or you would be here banging on about being independent. In a language that someone taught you. (&c &c &c)

"Not that sort of independent, Jane"

Humans are obligatory social animals. Same way cats are obligatory carnivores.

True, once you have reached an age where you can support yourself you can disappear into the yonder and live a life of true solitude. Obviously not injuring yourself or catching some nasty disease, or the dream ends there.

I'm sure I'll lighten up after a coffee 😀

Yup, MN are very good at extremes, less good at real life.

have you read this about the reality? https://catvalente.substack.com/p/what-we-talk-about-when-we-talk-about.

The opening premise is wrong.

Independence is a valuable and good life skill.

But that does not equal dependency is bad or shameful.

I also think that people are conflating co-operation with dependency.

I did my undergrad thesis on deviance ( people and movements in history who have deviated from societal norma and the extent to which society accommodates or otherwise deals with it). What becomes clear is that “the village” can’t accommodate a lot of diversity before it starts to fracture - basically conformity is key to success and people feeling that they’re united. “Othering” also helps because cohesion is created as much by defining who is “outside” as “inside”.

so I agree with pp who have said that the village/ collective model has quite a lot of losers, even as it can be beneficial. It’s probably not compatible with modern society.

well, ok, in the last few years of major tory fuck ups, these things have become harder - but when people say "it takes a village to raise a child" that doesn't mean lots of people pitch in and help a woman in her home. It means that we are surrounded by professionals that all take a part in child rearing, such as NHS, schools, police, etc. And these are available to everyone, Anyone can turn up at A and E anytime, everyone can get an education for their child, and the police are part of what is keeping our society in order, whether you have individual dealings with them or not.

These were just top of my head examples, add to that friends, relatives, (who interact with the child, I don't mean who come into the home to help) bus drivers, shop keepers, vicars, imams, courts, ticket inspectors, swimming teachers, scout leaders, instrument teachers, immigration control, tax officials, benefit office workers, the list is absolutely endless etc etc etc

All these people help supervise and guide a child, and keep their society stable. That is the village that raises the child. The stranger passing in the street who tells them off for carelessness on the road, or who even just smiles at them. (it is surprisingly important that strangers smile at infants) etc etc etc

If you are a woman, you need to be able to survive independently, anything less is asking for trouble. Independence allows choice. It's nice to have family and friends support but strongly advise to neither expect it nor rely on it. Living at the whim of others goodwill isn't great, especially if it's suddenly withdrawn. What then?

I'll start by saying its very easy for us to see the hardships we face and under appreciate the advantages we have.

Possibly due to it's links with Marxism / Communism the Feminist movement has set out to destroy the nuclear family. Part of this is encouraging many women to deride men. Trying to convince women that shoulder all the hardships and men have an easy life is a big part of this. This believe doesn't stand up to much scrutiny.

I say that as someone who's working pattern has allowed me to be both a home maker and employee.

Oh. Everything is the fault of The Women. I see. That's a real surprise and nothing to do with The Men. Got it.

My aunt works in a school and they are hosting family days where they cook and share meals for free. She said so many people have too much pride to take “free food” and everyone is too busy to get involved. Free local incentives don’t bring people together - whereas I live in a neighbourhood where everyone knows eachother well enough to support, eat together without the shame. I know if I had an issue I can message someone and they can help me.

This was my first thought when I saw your question. In the west, especially in cities - it’s all about taking care of “mine” only. And when people get involved they are doing it because there is some kind of benefit to them.

I think that’s such a shame. Normally we will always have a moment in our lives where we need people and I don’t think that we should live just so that we can bank favours, but so that we are building friendships and community. Normally people that don’t invest in their friends without a shellfish motive will wonder why “no one turns up to my parties” or “why us nobody visited me in hospital” or “why am I so lonely and depressed”

I also think deep down, we love good un-toxic relationships. I’m introverted (like my own space and I can only deal with small friendship circles) but I loveeee moments where I’m with friends, when we are out with the kids as a group, going to each others houses for dinners.

I spent my 20s being mega independent and thriving - it was good for then. I decided to start my 30s investing in relationships.

I do want to add that sometimes being part of a village can bring you down when you are ambitious and so you spend time finding your village. But also figuring yourself out so that you can contribute to a village and find the right one.

I think collective culture makes us more happy and safe - individualist culture runs out of fuel after a while.

I guess the question is “who are you sharing life with”

I agree with your sentiment OP - human beings are social creatures we are not designed to be completely independent and up until 10 minutes ago everyone understood this 🤷🏽‍♀️ I think a lot of people are missing the point that you are saying this is how it should be in general and not commenting on individual circumstances. Personally, I think it's the break down of the family both immediate and extended and the break down of communities in general.

This is where you have it so wrong (not that I'm advocating against independence and being able to look after yourself. If you have multiple people you can rely on, parents, siblings, cousins, friends etc then you don't really need to be independent as such because you will always have someone to turn to. I'm independent, but if I was desperate and needed help, I know I have many people to call on for help. If you only had yourself to rely on that would be exhausting even if it were only at a subconscious level. I'm so disturbed at the number of people on this thread who are trying to argue that a 'community' is a bad thing

And if those solutions are not available to you then you have only your own resources on which to draw.

@newnamethanks I think you've completely missed the point of this thread

I'm not sure how your logic works here?

Hopefully not; but I have to say I am surprised how many posters wear it as a badge of honour.

Exiting an abusive relationship is different from kicking off because your SIL didn’t like your haircut and MIL never serves your preferred vegan sausages. But on here you’d think they were comparable.

Exactly.

Especially as like some pp’s have said, ‘the village’ usually just means yet more work for women.

No thank you.

Thing is OP, you aren’t talking about “people” supporting their neighbours, you are talking about women doing unpaid labour. And now women are in the workplace in far greater numbers, that doesn’t really work.

So, are you going to put your money where your mouth is and give up work to go and clean your elderly neighbours’ houses and do their shopping for free, and provide unpaid childcare for your cousin’s kids? I’m assuming not.