Human beings weren’t designed to be independent so why are we forced to be?

[Buttercupsandpoppys]

I always prided myself on being independent. From 18 I went to uni, got a job, bought a house on my own etc. Being so independent has always been important to me and is seen as such a virtue in society.

Yet now I’ve had 2 kids and a DP I’ve come to realise that actually humans are meant to be dependant on eachother. I’ve been very blessed with lots of friends/family and I’ve relied on them so much over these past 2 years since my first was born.

I’ve also had a realisation on what a breakdown in society we have. Due to encouraging independence we’ve also shamed people for being dependent (disabled, elderly etc).

But humans are not made to be independent. We NEED others. If we have illness we need someone medical to treat us. If we have a child we need someone to either physically look after them whilst we work or to provide so we don’t have to work and can physically look after them.
We need shelter so we need someone to employ us or if self employed then to use our service.

Humans literally need other humans. But it’s drummed into us to never be dependent.

I’m currently on mat leave with my second baby and the amount of struggling mothers I’ve met at playgroups that don’t have any support outside of their DP is so sad.
Even the ones who have local friends wouldn’t ever ring a friend and ask for help unless it was a dire emergency because otherwise they worry they’d be seen as cheeky or struggling. Yet it’s entirely normal to need help because humans were made to live in communities and rely on eachother. It’s literally in our DNA to live in packs for the very reason of helping eachother. But it’s actively discouraged to be dependant in anyway shape or form.

I wondered why this is, and I think maybe capitalism? The less of a community there is and shame in asking for help, then the more insular people become yet because we need humans we now have to pay to have that need met(whilst thinking we’re independent yet still depending on others).

Does anyone else know why independence is so massively encouraged and dependency of any kind so shameful nowadays?

"it takes a village" was the status quo before urbanisation. People were bound by traditional culture. Fine if you were of limited education or intelligence but it wouldn't work with our high level of education - women only worked basic jobs when young until they had to look after their own families, if your parents were labourers then you would be a labourer. The lower classes did not achieve higher education.
Of course this still works for lots of families, but for those who have aspirations away from traditional roles it would be pretty rubbish.

Not in all cases surely??

@Laidbackguy sorry, was taking about enlisting help from friends and extended family. Her Dad is in the picture. Although I often think it would be easier if he wasn’t as well. But that’s another thread.

I don't relate to what you are saying at all.

Well humans didn't original have pain relief, fast food, ready meals, fridges, ovens, dishwashers, washing machines, tumble driers, central heating, comfy secure houses and beds. Humans would've needed more support for shelter, protection and sustenance, now we don't need it.

Our life is a lot more convenient now so many of us chose to move away from family and therefore need to be more self sufficient. I can't say that any of the things I have struggled with as a parent could've been fixed by more people being involved. Things like getting the hang of breastfeeding....I had support from lactation consultants....didn't make it any easier. Sleepless nights.....I had support from my dh. Terrible 2's. Worries when they were in hospital or their first night's away. Moody teens. All those things would feel the same if I had a whole village of other people in my house.....I would just be more annoyed at all the helpful interventions.

I know what you mean. Even with tiny babies people try to go against natural instincts to make them 'independent'.

I think most people (myself included) take a more defensive position by paying for services so it’s a clearer value of exchange. Agree it’s sad though

To the cynics, please get this book for your children and read it yourselves. "Little Blue Truck" By Alice Schertle. OP I think you will really like this book for your little one, I got given it and loved it.

Sorry, this is ridiculous
Of course, we need professionals for health, policing etc, but we can still remain independent in thought, education and career
We don't have to have children - but we can if we want
Independence is a great thing and not taught enough as evidenced by the questions on MN at times - people aren't even independent enough to google something

I totally agree OP.

I have been a lone parent since my children were tiny. I work full time. Both children are autistic. It is absolutely exhausting. We have extended family but they never lift a finger to help. I am extremely fortunate to have friends who do help us out (abd vice versa) and I can call in an emergency, and who provide emotional support, but as noted earlier in the thread you never want to lean on people too much because friendships need reciprocity.

I am so envious of friends with supportive families who collect their children from school, have their children to stay for weeks each summer, help out with general household things. I'd love to have a family like that and will certainly always do that for my children when they are adults. The safety net of knowing you have that support would be amazing.

Yes, you can buy in help. I have a cleaner, a gardener, a handyman, two nannies. However, it's not just that I need to pay for this, it's that when the house flooded at 2am obviously I couldn't call these people. Or when I am really sick, nobody is here to help me. Nobody ever takes care of me, and I never, ever get a single day off. Not once. And obviously as I need to pay for everything I am doing the work of two parents so I get very little free time. I don't think people with other adults in the family realise what it is like never being able to go to the gym or for a run or out for dinner or to the cinema or even to a friend's house for a takeaway without organising a babysitter.

The other aspect that is hard is having to be responsible for every decision. Everything rests on my shoulders and that burden really wears you down after many years of it, especially when we have had such a traumatic time during my children's childhood.

I don't believe it is a natural state of affairs at all to expect one adult to raise and provide for two children entirely on their own. Children are part of a wider family and I cannot imagine ever leaving a parent to do all of this and never offering any help at all. I think it makes the children feel less secure as well: they are very aware that they only have me and worry what would happen to them if something happened to me. My family could have made such a huge difference to this with a tiny bit of effort.

It reminds me of "About a Boy" where he talks about being an island. But in the end, decides that an island chain would be better.

Breastfeeding is a good example. I also had a lactation consultant and that didn't help. What helped was I had my antenatal whatsapp group who were all sharing tips, 12 out of 13 of us managed to breastfeed. Having the support of some random people I met at a pregnancy class was priceless. 3 years on I am still good friends with 4 of these ladies, and my DC is now best friends with one of the children from that group. You can't buy that.

@WonderingWanda also a readymeal isn't really a replacement for a delicious homecooked meal that my mum drops around, then spends some time with her grandchild before going home. And yes before anyone asks I do things for her too. We do that because we want to, and actually like each other! 😉

I don't think that anybody on here has said its a bad thing. I think what has been said is that the "traditional" view of the village to raise a child thing is unsustainable.

yup. The crab bucket.

now this is interesting.......you do it but others don't? I think most of us, no matter how independent we are do those small things, I have to say my hackles went well up at "pop in on a bereaved/sick/depressed person once for an hour with a kind word" because there are soo may assumptions there. My personal and family experience of bereavement is that many of us DO NOT want people to pop in with a "kind word" barf. The people who tried to offer kind words to me would not shut up.
Actually (and you may not have meant it) this last post of yours sounds a bit smug. "The whole world is crumbling because people don't do what I do and I (and my family) are the only ones who do it"

I've been thinking about this a bit more and the local Mum's who bang on about being a village invariable want me to provide free childcare for them in my summer holidays and they never want to reciprocate.

I also think too much is expected of people already so they can't then help others as much as they would like.
For example I work full time, plus run a business, maintain my house by myself as I'm a single parent to teenagers.

I have a friend with ongoing fertility issues. She wants me to go to all appointments with her. It's incredibly stressful as I just have too much on my plate. I help where I can but if I'm working I'm working. I think considering how busy most people are it isn't fair to keep asking people for help.

Well that's not a village, they're just CFers, they've always existed and that's not a new thing. Those people are best to avoid!

Doesn’t it have a lot to do with industrialisation and transport? People started to migrate from their rural homes to cities for better work opportunities. It became easier to travel long distances, close-knit communities and the extended family became more fractured. If you were living away from family, I guess you had to become more self-sufficient to survive. It gradually became much more normal for people not to stay in the communities where they grew up. We do need other people, but I think maybe the close ties which used to bind communities felt quite claustrophobic to some. There are many instances in my own family history of the push to break out and see the big wide world. And the need to be more independent is an inevitable consequence of that…

I agree with PPs that "the village" can't just be available for working mums, it has to be something we all contribute to and benefit from.

Recently I was going through a really tough time, my partner was unwell and I was working 60+ hour weeks. I barely had time to have a shower and brush my teeth. Then I got added to a WhatsApp group to volunteer to make meals and run errands for a new mum friend (her husband has 2 months paternity leave...!). I can see it's a nice idea but I felt aggrieved that not a single person had offered me help and now I was being asked to help someone who had a lot more support than me.

Looking back I probably should have said something. Reading this thread and that article makes me realise how many of these issues are a failure to be honest and communicate.

This has been an interesting thread OP. I know I've changed a lot from the caring person I once was.

The more I think about it all the more I dislike the mentality of you get out what you put in. No you don't. I've always offered help to others. I believed kindness, not money, made the world go round and acted accordingly. Then when disaster struck and I was unable to ask for help, guess what happened? Radio silence. Nobody checked in with me, if they knew. Nobody checked in with me to see why I'd not been in touch, if they didn't know. So when I was ready to rejoin society I didn't reach out either. I'd been left to struggle alone for ages, I didn't feel like coffee and a catch-up.

I metaphorically lived in the suburbs of this hypothetical village, before. Not as noticeable as those in the centre Doing Big Things for the community, just quietly helping friends, acquaintences and wider family as needed. Now, I've quietly quit. I'm the metaphorical old woman living in the house in the middle of the woods on the outskirts of the village, where few venture and most have forgotten I ever existed. I do feel a strange disconnect at times, but it's worth it.

I do have new friends who I'm fond of, but I don't put myself out for them. I respond to their messages. I contact them to meet up when I feel like it. I'm definitely holding a part of me back. In an emergency I'd help of course, but they'd have to let me know. I no longer make it my business to check if people are ok.

I'm less stressed now I'm not running round after others, worrying about them and their problems. I'm healthier and more contented now my sole focus is taking care of me and mine. I have more time, energy and money with which to do it too, now I'm not constantly giving to others. It's not how I wanted to be. I'm naturally kind and compassionate, but I needed to put a stop to ending up with one-way situations.

@palomatoast

Looking back I probably should have said something. Reading this thread and that article makes me realise how many of these issues are a failure to be honest and communicate.

It was also a failure of them to check in with you, find out how your life was going. A failure to notice you were in a situation where you could have used some help. If they wanted reciprocal supportive friendships, they should have done that. But new babies are exciting, sick husbands aren't and people do what suits them best.

We live in a very individualistic society. There are other models. In some societies people are much more interdependent.
There advantages and disadvantages. Receiving help and support means also being on hand to provide it.
There is more pressure to rub along with people who you really don't get on with.
In other ways there's less isolation and mental health tends to be better.
Traditional societies also tend towards a model of men working , often in teams and socialising together and women supporting each other with childcare, care of the sick and elderly etc.
There can be fewer opportunities but more support and less loneliness.
We have moved a very long way along the spectrum towards individualism and anyone who can't stand completely alone can be seen as weak.
I think Thatcher and "there's no such thing as society, only families and individuals" has contributed.
It would be nice to find a middle way.

@palomatoast It angers when I am asked to use my time to make up for lazy male partners not doing their bit. And if you do not have kids, some people assume you can never be struggling.

It was encouraging women to think they could survive without a man. It might be hard to imagine the times when that phrase was born if you were not around then. Many women left home straight into marriage. And the idea of living without a man i.e. divorcing, or not marrying, was incredibly foreign to many women. So lots of women put up with terrible marriages.
The phrase was saying you can manage by yourself. You don't need a man.
Things are very different now, so no one except extremely religious people think a woman can not live alone, or get divorced.

The nuclear family isn’t for everyone, that’s fine. It’s also a good thing that women don’t have to be trapped in miserable marriages.

I don’t see anything bad about that.

This would be a much better basic structure for society, in many ways:

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/apr/01/the-kingdom-of-women-the-tibetan-tribe-where-a-man-is-never-the-boss?fbclid=IwAR1scSSUSgxO9h1bEy7NMbVMFx8xMFF_TmHi5iAIrarEwR-Yp0hfc3dFTyI

Obviously it has its drawbacks being a very traditional society but those aspects aren't intrinsic to the differences in social structure compared to our focus on "nuclear" families which is just as artificial, if not more so, and has in many ways far more drawbacks overall. Doing away with marriage entirely and focusing on family, with romantic relationships kept separate would be prefereable and less dysfunctional in many, many ways.