I'm starting to think "shouty" parenting isn't ENTIRELY bad! [grin]

[MsMarch]

This is a slightly facetious post because I really don't think it is that simple or that there is a definitive right or wrong answer...

I shout at my children sometimes. Not a lot or excessively but, for example, if their behaviour is very poor I am likely to shout at them to stop it or tell them to leave the room or similar. We're not talking shrill screaming, but we're certainly not talking calm, "please stop doing that now" either. I have noticed similar with my siblings (not surprising I guess) and also a few friends.

I'm starting to notice that people who appear never to shout at their children, also seem to have a lot of behaviour issues. I suspect the real truth is that SOME parents who don't shout, ALSO don't have enough boundaries of any form and that's what's really happening, but from the outside, it just seems like the super patient kind ones are also the ones with the most badly behaved children.

In one case, I am actually concerned about a friend and her DH and their relationship. Every time we see them, her DH appears more and more worn down and exhausted and he has said a few times it's because he just so overwhelmed from the children and their behaviour. HER response is to say that the children are behaving that way because of x or y (usually sounds totally realistic so I understand where she's coming from) and that it's not their fault - and the dynamic is very much that he is NOT allowed to discipline or shout at the DC. The problem is that these are pre-teens so when the 9 year old is stealing food, making secret online purchases, refusing to allow anyone to watch TV if it's not what SHE wants to watch etc... even if it IS because she's exhausted and overwhelmed, its an issue. And her sister is similar but different - lots of screaming and shouting and refusal to listen, hitting out when frustrated etc.

This is an extreme example and a family I'm genuinely worried about as the mum is a very good friend, but I also saw it a lot over Christmas while we were out and about, "Rupert, please stop banging that lady's leg" accompanied by a wan smile at me as Rupert continued to whack me and so on.

In the case of my friend, there have been instances where I've been with them and my DD has behaved similarly, and I immediately jump on the behaviour. So DH and I are considering whether we need to spend less time with them simply because DD is not getting boundaries enforced there either.

I have a friend who is constantly exhausted with parenthood. She had a difficult start with a tough birth, terrible mastitis etc, and always feels she is letting her DD down by not being the perfect parent. The trouble is she has no boundaries and her DD is turning into a right little horror. She hits and pokes and is never taken to task or told to apologise. I am starting to avoid them now.

My other friend has two children and she is pretty strict with them, she has been known to raise her voice, but the kids are pretty well behaved. They have their moments of course, but normally they are polite and play well with others.

There is a lot of middle ground between never telling your kids off and constantly shrieking at them. It also depends on the child. Sometimes you have to raise your voice and be very firm.

@ChaToilLeam it's so hard isn't it? I think the word "firm" is quite helpful actually. Maybe shouting IS bad, but it's the way I am "firm" and if I wanted to change my own parenting, I need to be FIRM without shouting. Not entirely sure how to do that although I do have one friend who I think is quite good at that. Maybe I should get her advice?

But yes re boundaries. My friend's children also have truly awful table manners. We see them often enough and they are here often enough that I feel comfortable correcting them (when she's not here, obviously it's for her to do when she is) but while they listen to me, you can practically see them rolling their eyes. It seems like such a simple boundary to me - her children are more than old enough to know to eat with their mouths closed or to use cutlery. They'll both be in high school within 3 years!

If the husband wants to discipline the daughter for “stealing” food I can see why her mother has put a stop to it

haha, the stealing food is an example. But yes, he was pretty upset when she ate his birthday chocolate in one go, in secret.

If a child is stealing food there's issues going on that definitely do not need discipline.

You can have well behaved children without shouting. I'm sorry you've not figured it out, it is much more difficult to parent with reason than fear.

If you seek parenting advice online, you will almost certainly read info about remaining calm and not shouting etc.

I wonder if it's just that parents with difficult children are more likely to seek advice online and read this kind of thing and therefore employ such methods. Maybe some are not utilising the methods properly/effectively through exhaustion/burn out from dealing with said difficult children.

Firmness is one thing, shouting is another. The shoutiest parents I know are also lax, inconsistent and easily talked around. They shout when they have lost patience and temper as a result of their children's antics.

Having said all that, we all bellow "If you throw that we are going straight home" from time to time.

You also can speak to other adults without being snide and patronising. Honestly, you can do it if you really try!

I’m not sure what the point of your thread is- yes those all sound like poor boundaries but I don’t think that has anything to do with shouting

then you talk about maybe not spending time with them because your daughter isn’t having enough boundaries when there. Is that the point you are asking re OP? For me it depends on how often, how good a friends they are and how “badly” it is affecting your daughters behaviour. I’d rather just talk about it with my DD than cut them off. Ultimately it could be a nice teaching exercise about why we don’t do or allow x y and z as a family..

It’s often the loveliest of people who have the worst behaved children. I agree with you op, kids need boundaries, an occasional shout never did anyone any harm, and often it’s necessary.

Yes I agree. Kids need a definite, direct, controlled, short response to bad behaviour and in this instance I think shouting can work. This is different to long shouty rants which are often a loss of control.

Your friend's weak attempt with Rupert would've pissed me off far more than him whacking me.

Raising your voice doesn't always mean loss of control. I might raise the volume slightly and change the tone of my voice to make clear I am not happy and that consequences are close to being given. A "stop that right now" or "go to your room" never hurt anyone. But if you are shouting as a way to release your own anger, or if shouting is your only way of controlling behaviour, that's clearly wrong

I don't have a specific question, I'm musing. Perhaps the parents who are willing to shout occasionally are also the parents who believe that there are set boundaries that absolutely must be enforced?

I did enjoy the suggestion that shouting now and again equals parenting by fear and is easier than parenting by "reason". I'm not sure that reasoning with a 5 year old is always doable - sometimes it's just about making them understand that if they do x, y will happen! And shouting does tend to make that point! Or maybe I don't shout that much because my DC definitely aren't scared!

@User890976 that's a good point. And we have had this conversation a couple of times and there have also been chats when she's come back from there and done something and I've reminded her that it isn't okay and she shouldn't be doing it at "jenny's" house and she absolutely cannot do it at our house.

The child whacking my leg was someone else. A random woman in a queue who clearly didn't want to be firm with her child. It was one of many minor examples I noted over a few days of sightseeing.

I do actually agree with this: They shout when they have lost patience and temper as a result of their children's antics.. I know a few like this and while I am not like this all the time, I am embarrassed to admit that this has been me a few times (not often, but definitely a few times) at which point I always have to reflect on why I allowed things to get that far in the first place and what I should have done differently earlier.

Yes I agree with you. I wouldn’t call myself a shouty parent but I do at times. With 2 quite energetic and boisterous boys they simply wouldn’t listen to calm and patient talking sometimes.

My SIL prides herself on NEVER shouting at her daughter (and is openly very judgy about people who do), always having long, patient and calm talks with her daughter about kind hands and big feelings. But her behaviour is fucking awful. She shouts, screams, hits, refuses to share anything. If my sons touch anything of hers, whether she’s playing with it or not she comes at them scratching, hitting and biting. And SIL will calmly have a big long talk about how she understands how frustrating it must be for someone to touch her toys and how she feels etc. Never, ever shouts but the behaviour is always, always terrible. She has no friends in school because no one wants to play with her! SIL didn’t really mind when other people’s children were being hit but is starting to care a lot more now she has another baby who is sadly being regularly attacked.

I think some shouting for very poor behaviour is ok, as long as it’s not all the time and not in a scary out of control screaming way. I think children who are spoken to calmly and gently when they’ve done something really fucking awful don’t quite grasp how their behaviour really isn’t ok. If my sons ever hit a baby they would be very sharply told off and removed from the room. SIL will just witter on about kind hands and can’t understand why she is still hitting.

I actually see nothing wrong with shouting if a situation demands it.

If being a good role model is what parenting is about, are we modelling a robot? I think that children should know that parents are also people with feelings and that they can get upset and angry as well as happy and positive.

Clearly, if a parent is shouting all the time, it is not role modelling and nor will it be effective but there are times when ‘please Lola, you know hitting your baby brother over the head with a frying pan: you are 5, so five minutes time out’ just doesn’t cut it!

I was the gentle parent no rising my voice sorry for this sorry for that your the important one.
(Just look at my post called child to parent abuse) it turned my 2 in to selfish bossy in entitled people.
I wish i had taken the advice years ago by the older gen not to do the whole gentle parenting.
And just bring them up rough and ready let them know who`s boss and the world is not fair and you cant have your way all the time because life dont work like that.
Sorry i could go on.

I've always wondered at people how think that you should just explain to children and their child will calmly say "oh mummy, now you've explained that if I have an ice cream now then I won't want my lovely healthy dinner, so of course I won't ask again."
I mean, I know that eating an ice cream just before dinner will mean that, still doesn't stop me wanting (and sometimes having) one.

Yes, you can shout too much at a child... but you can also spend far too long explaining why with no consequences if they continue.

@MargaretThursday So true. SIL was that parent (she's now way too far the other way and screams at her children all the time and they just ignore it), but after yet ANOTHER incident of DN hurting DD and her having long chats with him and saying to us, "he just doesn't understand, he didn't do it on purpose" we agreed it couldn't continue. the next time it happened, we got up and left.

Needless to say, we were positioned as being very precious etc etc. But you know what... DN hasn't hit DD since. (he absolutely ADORES her. part of his habit of hitting her was if she didn't give him enough attention he'd attack her to get her attention. He didn't care that it was negative attention).

I have noticed that no discipline= badly behaved children

From what I've seen from the gentle parenting brigade the children are spoilt entitled brats at best, at worst violent pre-thugs

I don't think yelling type of shouting helps but something that's a clear, firm voice amd boundaries are needed.
We spent a couple of days with SIL, her partner and kids over Christmas. Their youngest who is 5 is really badly behaved. She has been a handful for a while but it's got worse as they let her get away with things. Apparently they're working on her behaviour.
There's a lot of gentle, sing songy voice from SIL saying she understands she's frustrated etc but there's never consequences for her behaving badly!

As a parent and teacher, gotta shout sometimes as that's the wow I've gone too far moment! Just my experience, what do I know lol 😆

I parented 4 very close in age children (I had 4 aged 5 and under!) and two of them could have been 'gentle' parented... they were gentle easy children who never tantrummed, were naturally eager to please...and just easy.
The other two were not.. firey, feisty super active children ..and if there was a dangerous idea... hell yeah they were up for it. Had I gentle parented them, there is a strong possibility at least one of them would have died doing something stupid and the other would probably be in prison.
I rarely shouted in a ranty way. But now and again I did shout.. and then it did mean they knew they had crossed a line. Hurt someone/ each other... line crossed.

I also meant what I said and if it was 'If you do that again we are leaving' ..and left. Usually only had to do that once!

They have all grown up into very nice, unentitled decent adults, and definitely not scarred by the occasional proper telling off!

I'm now Granny care of a delightful but feisty and strong willed toddler. DD and I employ the same style .. we have a few 'hard line' boundaries.. no hurting anyone, no running off and please and thankyou are mandatory. Hurt someone... removed from scene. Run off.. back in the buggy. Short explanation why. It works.
I also work in Education and it's sadly always clear which children have not had much in the way of boundaries and they find school..and friendships, much harder as a result.

There are times and places for talking gently. There are times and places for stern voices and raising them.

There is a difference in raising a voice to deliver a point, compared to a prolonged rant. Sometimes you do have to cut through the noise (this can even include internal mind noise)

Children need to understand that adults have a normal range of emotions and feelings too. It's unrealistic to be permanently gentle, because out in the real world, teachers, youth leaders and anyone else won't always be nice and gentle when they misbehave or cock up. Children need to know boundaries and what the limits of behaviour are, and the normal range of human emotions.

Well said, bog roll