I'm starting to think "shouty" parenting isn't ENTIRELY bad! [grin]

[MsMarch]

This is a slightly facetious post because I really don't think it is that simple or that there is a definitive right or wrong answer...

I shout at my children sometimes. Not a lot or excessively but, for example, if their behaviour is very poor I am likely to shout at them to stop it or tell them to leave the room or similar. We're not talking shrill screaming, but we're certainly not talking calm, "please stop doing that now" either. I have noticed similar with my siblings (not surprising I guess) and also a few friends.

I'm starting to notice that people who appear never to shout at their children, also seem to have a lot of behaviour issues. I suspect the real truth is that SOME parents who don't shout, ALSO don't have enough boundaries of any form and that's what's really happening, but from the outside, it just seems like the super patient kind ones are also the ones with the most badly behaved children.

In one case, I am actually concerned about a friend and her DH and their relationship. Every time we see them, her DH appears more and more worn down and exhausted and he has said a few times it's because he just so overwhelmed from the children and their behaviour. HER response is to say that the children are behaving that way because of x or y (usually sounds totally realistic so I understand where she's coming from) and that it's not their fault - and the dynamic is very much that he is NOT allowed to discipline or shout at the DC. The problem is that these are pre-teens so when the 9 year old is stealing food, making secret online purchases, refusing to allow anyone to watch TV if it's not what SHE wants to watch etc... even if it IS because she's exhausted and overwhelmed, its an issue. And her sister is similar but different - lots of screaming and shouting and refusal to listen, hitting out when frustrated etc.

This is an extreme example and a family I'm genuinely worried about as the mum is a very good friend, but I also saw it a lot over Christmas while we were out and about, "Rupert, please stop banging that lady's leg" accompanied by a wan smile at me as Rupert continued to whack me and so on.

In the case of my friend, there have been instances where I've been with them and my DD has behaved similarly, and I immediately jump on the behaviour. So DH and I are considering whether we need to spend less time with them simply because DD is not getting boundaries enforced there either.

Yes, DS was a genuinely terrible sleeper (I've been assured by multiple doctors subsequently this is a feature of his ADHD and that they are sympathetic to my plight) but I think it made us less good at DD's sleep routines, particularly as she was a good sleeper so frankly, we were so thrilled by our relatively easy it was. But now we're suffering as she's still a good sleeper.... once she's actually in bed asleep. We've totally created a rod for our own backs with a not very effective bedtime routine/process. We're working on it and it's getting better, but my god, it's slow going.

I think it's OK occasionally. Not shrieking but a sharp, raised voice. I don't mind teachers doing the same. If it's a lot that's different.

Sounds like you're spending a lot of time worrying about things which aren't your business. If you're happy with your parenting and your children's behaviour, you don't need to be "concerned" with anyone else's.

Personally, I have shouted from time to time but it has never got good results from my daughter and I don't think it's an effective strategy.

In my view, a stern slightly raised voice is fine.

Shouting needs to be kept for emergency situations only, when the dc is in danger and you need to stop them immediately (playing with fire, running in front of a moving car etc). If they are accustomed to you shouting at them a lot, they will be desensitised to it and they won't pay attention when you really need them to.

@Fairyliz my feral then-6yo DS2 did something very similar! We were walking towards a school car park, I've always told my DC to stay alert and not run off like maniacs when cars are around.

A car pulled out, DS2 had decided to sprint off ahead (I was recovering from a spinal fracture and couldn't chase him) and he ran into the side of the still-moving car.

I absolutely lost my SHIT at him, full-on yelling at him in the street. The poor driver was so upset, she was so worried she'd hurt him! Luckily he was fine, I couldn't have apologised enough to the driver.

Obviously fear for DS2 made me properly lose it, but he's never done anything like it since. No regrets, he's 9 now, still with no sense of danger (or anything else 😅), but he's never forgotten how close he came to being seriously injured.

I got a VERY snotty look from a Perfect Dad walking past as I was bollocking DS2, but it wasn't HIS Angelic DC that could've been mown down!

@MiniCooperLover @DewHopper this makes me really sad too. You were hugely unlucky going through peri during lockdown, especially with patchy access to HRT since - my heart goes out to you there.

My mother was a horror, completely Jekyll and Hyde (no MH issues). I was a quiet, bookish sort of kid but couldn't keep my room tidy no matter how hard I tried, and that set my mother off something rotten.

She'd literally SCREAM in my face, I vividly remember being 6yo and I wasn't tidying my room well enough to please her. She came in and dumped out all the boxes of things I'd been trying to sort out. She was absolutely seething with rage, it was hugely disproportionate and I was in floods of tears. I felt like she hated me and that no matter how hard I tried, it'd never be good enough for her. She was never afraid of smacking me one either, then getting my dad to do the same when he got home.

I left home at 16 as I'd had enough. My parents' endless rage over tiny transgressions set me up for many years of violent relationships and MH issues.

I'm 40 now and she still behaves like I'm a kid. She HATES it when I calmly assert my boundaries. She would never, ever admit that SHE was the problem.

@MiniCooperLover - you have a lot of self-awareness, and I admire that. Your relationship with your son CAN recover, given time and love. In the meantime, respect his boundaries, tell him he's loved very much, and try to rebuild trust xx

You have to be firm and have clear boundaries with your children. I wouldn't see anything wrong with a firm and loud tone if needed. If you don't discipline children when they are younger god help you when they are teenagers. My sister has been using 'gentle parenting' with her children. One of them will only eat junk food and refuses to eat anything else. There is no bedtime, no structure or routine. Her oldest child is now 10 and can be very defiant when corrected. I dread to think what she will be like when puberty hits.

In contrast, with my own children I have been very strict with are generally well behaved. They have their moments of course but overall they do behave well. When my sister calls she marvels at how well behaved my children are. My own background is in education and I was always adamant my own children wouldn't turn into the feral ones I work with. I wouldn't tolerate the behaviour my sister tolerates from my nieces and nephews. It seems like she just wants an easier life. It's easier for her to let them do what they want rather than discipline them.

That isn’t my experience of human emotions. I find if I bite my tongue about things that annoy me, the anger isn’t ’there expressed or not’ - it mostly goes away, and I have no problems experiencing wonder, joy, relaxation or comfort as a result. Anger and frustration are normal functions of being an imperfect person sharing the world with other imperfect people, and mostly you can rub along very well by just being positive and tolerant. Save the expression for the rare times when it’s actually helpful or necessary. I also don’t agree that a five year old screaming and thrashing outside a supermarket is fine - they might do it, but that doesn’t mean it’s fine and I’m very clear on that.

Ongoing anger about bad things needs dealt with e.g. a bad relationship. Short term anger is better repressed rather than being fed. For example the driver who cuts us up. We all know drivers who get very angry at things like this happening, and others who may say idiot in frustration and then forget about it.
Teaching children not to get too wound up about everyday things is important.

There’s a difference between being a adult and a child though?

current research into Brian development says children only develop the capacity in the cortex to rationalise from 5 onwards.

also, you are aware people vary?
some people don’t feel emotions that strongly. And they are easier to manage if you don’t. Maybe you are one of those people.

some people feel them REALLY strongly. I’m one of those and so are my kids. Now I realise because neuro diversity runs through our family. ADHD, ASD traits. I’ve found the ongoing discussion about how under diagnosed these are in girls / women revelatory.

i listened to a podcast recently with someone describing how she can read others emotions and motivations, which I can also do. I avoid scary films as I’d have nightmares for weeks if I watched one. Stories or films I watch that resonate with me become a source of hyperfocus and fuel for my vivid imagination. I have an incredible memory and can replay whole scenarios from my early childhood not just word for word but like a 3D film it’s not just that I can visualise i can see it and feel all the emotions anyone there was experiencing

these things are superpowers but it’s an intense way to live and it was A LOT when I was a child and if anything the experiences were more intense - and I didn’t understand what created them or that not everyone experienced the world as I do.

i was told certain emotions and behaviours were unacceptable as a child. I found a way to control them on the surface (though I remember the shaming I got when I couldn’t). But they didn’t go away. They swirl around and reappear at unhelpful times.

For example true anger rather than just irritation is an intense visceral experience for me that runs through my whole body.

asking someone experiencing that to suppress it (rather than control or manage it until they can express it safely) can backfire spectacularly.

sadly I’ve seen that happen to a close family member.

therapy and reading the best parenting research has enabled me to learn how to express my own emotions safely and in processing them appropriately in a much happier more stable person.

You’re right, people vary enormously. I personally am of the variety who would actively discourage my kids from believing that my emotions were stronger, more visceral and therefore necessitated more demonstration than other people’s.

Thank you BeautyGoesToBenidorm, I appreciate that. For you and the previous poster who said my post made them sad, I'm so sorry your mums were so hard on you. Thankfully though I was shouty it was not (i don't believe) on that level.

We do have a good relationship I think, we cuddle and we laugh. He's a great kid, very serious though and I worry those 2 years definitely contributed. We've all started talking with someone once a week to try and help us as a family to learn how to talk to each other well and to help him through when he starts adolescent.

children need boundaries, it is part of a stable upbringing

My friend believed in gentle parenting which has made her children into such entitled feral monsters that she screams, hits and all sorts at them, to the point that she’s just lost custody of one of them, she is utterly miserable as a parent and has been for many years. It’s been a disaster.

I believe in explanations, reasoning and modelling HEALTHY behaviour. Healthy behaviour is accepting that we all have emotions, emotions are normal but we also need to know how to use and channel them.

I realised that as my daughter got older, she had a very skewed idea of what an argument or an unhappy marriage was, as her dad and I are like best friends who never really have more than a cross word. One day something had happened, it was something so minor that I absolutely can’t even remember what it was (no shouting at each other or anything, but something had annoyed me), it coincided with her peers reaching an age where parents had started to split (private school, all parents were together and married in her class until age 5/6 ish when the odd separations started to creep in), and we found her sobbing her heart out in her bedroom because she thought we were getting a divorce. It was completely and utterly ridiculous however it made us realise that she believed that one cross word = divorce because she had no experience of what an unhappy relationship actually looks like, and unintentionally we were modelling almost a false reality to her. It is real to us, but it’s not a true reflection of a ‘normal’ relationship.

Since then we have both made a real effort to almost overreact to small annoyances (by overreact I mean the occasional sharp word or snap at each other) or I will say that I am very frustrated and why etc and we make a point of doing it when she’s around to try to model conflict and healthy resolution to conflict as I hadn’t realised that it’s an important skill - I’m obviously aware of it because I’ve had other relationships that were more like battlegrounds, my parents have a difficult marriages etc but the thing I did not anticipate is that a really wonderfully happy marriage with no hard times being all they know of relationships is equally setting a child up to not be prepared for real life either because we only know what we know and if all she ever sees are two parents who never have so much as a cross word, how will she know what to do, or that it’s ok and normal to feel annoyed, angry with a partner etc.

We also talk a lot about emotions, including the negative ones such as anger and jealousy and how they are normal, human and healthy. That what defines us isn’t having/not having them, but how we respond to them.

And I will absolutely shout if the situation is appropriate. If I’ve told you 23 million times to brush your teeth and you still haven’t done it, then you’re being rude and disrespectful and I will raise my voice to make that point.

There’s a difference between a voice raised and a loss of control and a voice raised to make a point that has been missed otherwise.

As everyone else has largely said, these kids need to be able to function in the real world! Your children might be the centre of YOUR universe (and they absolutely should be) but they’re not the centre of THE universe and it’s so important that they understand that or they’ll pay the price in later life.

My friend S doesn´t shout at her kids and she has 3 amazing, well behaved, intelligent and emotionally mature children. She is like an Angel truly, I´ve lost my sh·t way more times then her LOLZ. I guess as a parent just do what feels best for you. Maybe some kids need a stern voice and some respond well to calm discussions. To each their own.

I am no child rearing expert and certainly have had the ‘usual’ stuff with my son. Yes, I tried not to be shouty but if I needed to get his attention I admit I would shout (but not bellow and not go on and on). But I have one friend who said from the birth that she would never shout at her 2 and , in fact, chose that she would never say No to them - said that explaining and talking was better than saying no and being calm was better. Agree it may not be related but both children have had their difficulties. Eldest has anger management problems and youngest has been diagnosed with a variant of Asperger’s. It did make me think

Children are quite intelligent and respond well to discipline.
Problem is when the instruction is confusing and not consistent.

I've worked as a nanny to all manner of kids.

What I found worked, was consequences as well as being firm, over and over again.

Three strikes and that's it. Each and every time. It is tiring but being consistent is key.

Also, leave their plate on the table, I'd go and get them to clear it even if it means walking further than said table, every time.
Same as clothes left on the floor etc, once they settle into the next thing, usually tv or such, they'd have to go and sort it.
They soon get fed up of being disturbed and do it on their own.

What's sad though is the same kids then behave differently with the parents as there are no boundaries.

Have been asked how I do it and explained yet the parents still can't get on top of it. Then complain the kids don't listen.

This excluded kods with special needs of course.

I work at a pupil referral unit and have done long before I had my two boys. I’ve seen first hand what absent and gentle parenting delivers and kids today are feral and will be of no good use to society. Disrespectful, zero regard for anyone, know nothing other than getting involved in antisocial behaviour and have police records as long as my arm. Lazy, appeased and not driven to do well for themselves.
My DH and I work as a team, no divide or conquer and we back each other up always. Decisions are made together and we shout when need be. We have a 3 strikes and you’re out rule with our boys with strict consequences and boundaries. They are kids (13 & 9) so they push, they play up but they are well mannered and highly independent individuals and doing really well at school and in their chosen sports.
Most folk bringing up kids today are young wet wipes. Come for me all you want but they are. Very precious creatures in total denial of what their child is doing and refuse to use consequence. No backbone with a will to instil respect into their little delights. Frustrated the heck out of me being in the thick of it but they keep me in a job!

I didn’t smack my children but I did raise my voice. I don’t agree with the screaming type parenting but see nothing wrong with a bit of voice raising here and there. I’ve never had an issue with them not having boundaries and they were the sort of children you could take to social events and they’d always be well behaved. I’m not sure what gentle parenting is exactly but I think a good middle ground is the best way.

With you 100% on this one. I was a Teaching Assistant in a Primary School. The worst behaved children had parents who didn’t believe in any form of discipline except a lame pleading with their errant child 🙄

I’m not a ‘shouty’ parent but I certainly do discipline and certainly will tell off or shout if I need to. I could say this is a more wishy washy way I’m sure, but I’m quite frankly sick of non-shouty, gentle, “oh can we please stop kicking the seat in front please darling” BS. Kids need telling and when this gentle approach isn’t working then more needs to be done: shouting if necessary. There are too kids now running amok because their wet wipe parents don’t think they should be disciplined properly. No boundaries and no clue how to behave. That’s why IMO there are so many dickish kids because they’re not being properly taught how to behave and their parents have excuses for all their poor behaviour: “they’re tired/overwhelmed/whatever” - tough tits! The parents are doing their kids a disservice when they’re like this.

If a kid kept banging my leg after he’d been told to stop I’d grab the little bugger’s knee where it hurts and say ”I really don’t like you doing that to me”
LOL 🙃

I wouldn’t allow my child to keep banging your leg. It would be a once and stopped/moved away.

However, be prepared for me to punch you in the face if you grabbed my child’s leg at any point.

Therein is the issue. She would be doing you a favour, no punching required.

Literally my experience, line by line!