I'm starting to think "shouty" parenting isn't ENTIRELY bad! [grin]

[MsMarch]

This is a slightly facetious post because I really don't think it is that simple or that there is a definitive right or wrong answer...

I shout at my children sometimes. Not a lot or excessively but, for example, if their behaviour is very poor I am likely to shout at them to stop it or tell them to leave the room or similar. We're not talking shrill screaming, but we're certainly not talking calm, "please stop doing that now" either. I have noticed similar with my siblings (not surprising I guess) and also a few friends.

I'm starting to notice that people who appear never to shout at their children, also seem to have a lot of behaviour issues. I suspect the real truth is that SOME parents who don't shout, ALSO don't have enough boundaries of any form and that's what's really happening, but from the outside, it just seems like the super patient kind ones are also the ones with the most badly behaved children.

In one case, I am actually concerned about a friend and her DH and their relationship. Every time we see them, her DH appears more and more worn down and exhausted and he has said a few times it's because he just so overwhelmed from the children and their behaviour. HER response is to say that the children are behaving that way because of x or y (usually sounds totally realistic so I understand where she's coming from) and that it's not their fault - and the dynamic is very much that he is NOT allowed to discipline or shout at the DC. The problem is that these are pre-teens so when the 9 year old is stealing food, making secret online purchases, refusing to allow anyone to watch TV if it's not what SHE wants to watch etc... even if it IS because she's exhausted and overwhelmed, its an issue. And her sister is similar but different - lots of screaming and shouting and refusal to listen, hitting out when frustrated etc.

This is an extreme example and a family I'm genuinely worried about as the mum is a very good friend, but I also saw it a lot over Christmas while we were out and about, "Rupert, please stop banging that lady's leg" accompanied by a wan smile at me as Rupert continued to whack me and so on.

In the case of my friend, there have been instances where I've been with them and my DD has behaved similarly, and I immediately jump on the behaviour. So DH and I are considering whether we need to spend less time with them simply because DD is not getting boundaries enforced there either.

Yes @BogRollBOGOF several ‘gentle’ parents I’ve met seem to think they can never show any emotion no matter what the behaviour. I have a friend who told me she felt terrible because she cried when her son bit her because she didn’t want him to feel responsible for her emotions. But he was! He needs to learn that if you bite someone it hurts them and makes them upset. She genuinely couldn’t see that and thought he shouldn’t feel responsible for an adults emotions. He is going to have a hard time in the real world.

I think this has articulated more clearly than I did what I meant. A sharp, raised voice "DS, brush your teeth NOW" is very different to a prolonged rant, yes.

I think @WindTheMummyUpWindHerBackAgain makes a good point about gentle parenting overall and perhaps that's actually the issue with my friend - she excuses bad behaviour because they're tired, or overwhelmed etc, which they are. BUT in the real world, that's not going to cut it as a reason when they're behaving badly. The one DD has a lot of friendship challenges at school and she thinks she's "sensitive" but I think more and more it's that her DD is not learning how to adapt her behaviour when necessary.

There is nothing wrong in children seeing that they have pushed you too far and that you are human and have responded strongly (not physically, obviously).

French mothers do not hold back in shouting at their children, I have noticed. They don't accept crap at, say, a restaurant or when shopping. As a general population they do not seem more emotionally messed up than we are and it is pleasanter to be in a public space with families who won't let their children behave badly.

I think there's parents who shout, and shouty parenting.

I've certainly raised my voice (or yelled) at my kids for emphasis - but if they're getting an actual telling off (thankfully quite rare), then my voice is forceful, but not loud. And I used to yell at them to come down for dinner (more firmly if they were late)- although I SMS these days (!). I've probably yelled at them if I was very cross, but never out of control yelled (so they don't fear me - although they do know that I'm the boss)

vs. a shouty parent who's always yelling about something, so the kids ignore all of it.

They shout when they have lost patience and temper as a result of their children's antics.

And it’s okay for children to see this. In fact, I think it does them good to recognise - in a safe way, from a parent who loves them - what that looks like. It’s a way of learning what it looks like when someone’s cross and you’ve upset them. If adults never let you see that (eg the friend that @WindTheMummyUpWindHerBackAgain mentions in her post), how do kids learn? How do they recognise that they’ve gone too far and need to offer an apology? Because other people in the world won’t always be calm and understanding. And that’s going to be one hell of a shock for them.

YANBU. In the animal kingdom, babies play and push boundaries, and their parents screech at them if they push them too far. I don't agree with physical discipline, but natural reactions - loud voice, anger - are just that. Natural.

I find children who aren't disciplined have very bland personalities too. My friend did no more than gently chide her toddler for trying to hit my baby with a stick repeatedly.

My friends who discipline their kids have lovely, engaging and well behaved kids. Kids without boundaries don't know who they are. You find yourself at the boundaries.

I actually think that type of parent is close to abusing their child as they are setting them up as a child who will have no friends and no one likes, who doesn't get invited to parties and sleepovers.

There is definitely a push against gentle parenting online. I don’t agree with all of its principles but equally I know if I raise my voice at my own children it massively exacerbates anything DS is doing and frightens DD (nearly 6 months) so I don’t do it because it doesn’t work.

I agree. All these extremist soft parenting techniques I'm not keen on. What about middle of the road, loving and firm but fair. I don't shout often. I talk, I tell them this is getting on my nerves, and then when it is repeated I feel disrespected, so shout 'I've had enough of this bollocks, both of you'! An occasional shout isn't that bad. It's similar to arguing, Dh and I very rarely argue, but ds's need to see that you can, and you get over it and move on. If a child never hears shouting or never hears an argument, how will they know how to deal with it and move on in their own marriage?

I actually think that type of parent is close to abusing their child as they are setting them up as a child who will have no friends and no one likes, who doesn't get invited to parties and sleepovers.

As long as they go to school it will sort itself out when they get a few unauthorised thumps back from the other children.

I think it's a "middle way" problem. Do you know that saying? It's from one (possibly multiple) of the Eastern religions, the story goes that a student of the religious teacher is confused because he hears the religious teacher telling someone on one day to go right, go right, right is the correct path. Then the next day, the teacher tells someone else go left, left is the correct path.

The pupil is confused and he asks the teacher: Which is the correct path, then? It can't be right AND left. What's going on?

The teacher explains that neither the right path or the left path is correct. The person he was advising to go right was trying to take the left path. The person he was advising to go left was trying to take the right path. He was guiding both of them towards the middle path, which is the correct one.

To translate this to parenting - some people are very chaotic in their parenting, very reactive, very emotional. They are very lax and then suddenly their DC annoys them and they come down like a ton of bricks and get into an unhelpful spiral. OR they are too strict with too high expectations and are constantly shouting, berating, criticising and never having a kind word.

Those parents likely benefit from some instruction as to what to replace the shouting with. They are too far "right" and need to "go left". (Shout less. Be more positive. Have milder sanctions.)

But if you're a very timid parent who doesn't like to upset DC then you probably are too far left and trying to follow the "go left" advice is just going to end up with you drowning in a swamp somewhere.

I think short form parenting content on instagram (etc) really really doesn't help with this issue! People come across a snapshot or a script on instagram and somehow think that is the whole story, when it just is not that simple.

Some people forget you are bringing up children to be adults. Adults in a society where you have to live alongside lots of other adults.

The world axis does not spin around your perfect misunderstood child.

OP with your friend you might want to point out that in the long run they aren't doing their children any favours by letting them exist as their perfect selves. If you can really be bothered.

But it doesn’t any more - those gentle parents immediately wade into school to complain about all the other kids, don’t back up the staff when the staff point out their kid is an unsocialised horror, and do anything to avoid the uncomfortable reality.

I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the rise in gentle parenting over the past decade is accompanied by serious mental health issues in children. Combined with smartphones, social media, school pressures, lack of exercise and shit food I’m amazed any kids at all are well balanced!

Sadly not in the case of DN who appears to have few friends at school, has been moved etc. Although I wouldn't class SIL as a gentle parent, more a "I'll use the extreme versions of every type of parenting depending on the day" parent eg poor, violent behaviour is often talked about long and endlessly and excused by "he didn't mean to do that". On the other extreme, she will shout and yell and rant at him about how awful he is.... while delivering ZERO actual consequences. It's very sad.

Raised voices and expressing frustration/anger/irritation is okay I think if it's reasonable and not excessive. We're human too and sometimes small people need firm boundaries. DS HATED holding my hand when crossing roads as a toddler, but I just ignored his whinging because it wasn't safe otherwise. Sometimes, a shout is the same thing - the only way to get through.

This reminds me of one day last year when I was in the park after school and there was a group of mums with their kids near where I was sat. One of the kids was complaining that his teacher shouted at the class today; the boy's mum then explained to him how it was very wrong of his teacher to shout because shouting is never good communication and adults should know better. Poor teacher was probably trying desperately to make herself heard over the din of 30 kids talking 😂.

I try not to shout and mostly I'm pretty patient and calm, but I think that makes it more effective when I do fully lose my shit 😂.

The only time I ever shout at my children is if they’re in danger. I consider myself a firm parent with boundaries and I expect my DC to behave well. DD1 is 9 and has moments of pre-teen attitude that is never accepted. DD2 is 3 and has moments of tantrums or not following instructions. Again, this is challenged and she doesn’t get her way just because she’s had a tantrum.

However, I do also try to understand why my children behave the way they do. DD2 went through a phase of hitting DD1 but a consistent, firm ‘no, we don’t hurt DD1’ and moving her away did work. We also worked to teach DD1 that sometimes she was being hit because she wasn’t respecting her sister’s boundaries and kept getting in her face when she didn’t like it. Toddlers don’t have the sophisticated communication skills to explain that. If DD1 is frustrated, I stop the attitude and then have a chat about what’s wrong and if I can help. If DD2 is upset because she’s been told no, she doesn’t get what she wants but I comfort her and redirect her attention.

I disagree that shouting is effective parenting. My DM was a shouter and it just made me block her out. There is a huge difference between shouting and non-existent parenting.

i reserve 'shouting' for when they have really fucked up (teenagers) its always been effective.

I'm firm, consistent, but never shout in day to day dealing with behaviour that is out of line, i prefer to be firm and then talk about it with them.
They know if they push to the point of my shouting that hoo boy, they crossed the line.

I probably shouldn’t make this comparison but every time I’ve watched that Dog behaviour programme so many of the issues are solved by the owner saying sternly “insert dogs name” No! I cannot believe they have never said a stern no to their pet before!!!

Shouting is useful when it’s used sparingly.
I tried not to shout at my children but when my five year old was going to run across the road without looking I screamed and it stopped them in their tracks.
Yes they also burst into tears but rather an upset child than a dead one. They also never ran across the road again, so a harsh but useful lesson.

I agree. While the kids might be acting that way because of X feeling, they will one day be adults with that feeling and they need to learn how to deal with it appropriately.

It’s not okay to steal because you feel out of control (for example). As an adult, you will need a healthy outlet to deal with that feeling and know you can cope with it without resorting to extreme behaviour, because you learnt as a child - in a safe environment.

I know gentle parenting is supposed to do this, but it’s so often misapplied and it’s setting these poor kids up for failure in later life.

I didn't actually intend for this thread to be a gentle parenting bashing thread, but I guess that naturally that IS what I set up. It's kind of reassuring though as I was thinking about shouting as a potentially good thing and wondering when this had become a thing for me, but I've long found gentle parenting a bit silly and not very helpful so I guess it was just the flip side of that coin. \

It is not realistic to gentle parent in every situation. When mine are in the midst of a full blown attack against each other I would not stand a chance in hell calming explaining why they should stop. I have heard every teacher they have had raise their voices and don't think any less of them. The children of these gentle parents are normally little horrors with no concept of discipline.

Hear hear! I shout sometimes, if the situation requires it. Kids need firm boundaries, they do better for it, makes them into resilient adults who don’t expect the world to cater to them. Parental authority is important for a reason, part of life is understanding authority structures and working within these.
You can balance that authority with unconditional love, teaching your kids emotional intelligence etc. shouting and being strict doesn’t mean you don’t love your kids!!!
also we are humans too not martyrs to our children. I lose my shit, I make mistakes. I’m not perfect but I am reflective and can accept I’ve made errors. If I go too far (and I do, I can have a short fuse when I’m feeling stressed or overwhelmed) I will always apologise to my child afterwards- I can’t go back in time and change my behaviour, but I can own up to the fact it was wrong. It’s a part of being human
none of this is to say I’m a perfect parent and we all have our different ways of doing things- different life experiences etc- but I will die on the hill that parental authority must exist to create well rounded, resilient and successful kids

I parented 4 very close in age children (I had 4 aged 5 and under!) and two of them could have been 'gentle' parented... they were gentle easy children who never tantrummed, were naturally eager to please...and just easy.
The other two were not.. firey, feisty super active children ..and if there was a dangerous idea... hell yeah they were up for it. Had I gentle parented them, there is a strong possibility at least one of them would have died doing something stupid and the other would probably be in prison.

This absolutely. It depends what type of child you have.

I have two DD and gentle parenting would never ever have worked for my very strong willed one. It might have worked for my more praise seeking one, apart from her tendency to seek out physical danger which definitely means shouting has been necessary on occasion.

There are a lot of threads on here complaining about gentle parenting.

Trends come and go in parenting. I think one of the problems is that gentle is presumed to be a synonym for weak and it isn’t. If I close a door gently because I don’t want to wake somebody up, I’m being careful, not weak. I could slam the door but I’m not going to because I’m being respectful and thinking about my actions.

(I am not suggesting you are not respectful to your children or thinking about them when you do discipline. I’m just pondering on why ‘gentle parenting’ is the latest target on here.)

I was / am a teacher (currently on maternity leave) but my line of work is a bit niche and suffice to say shouting wouldn’t be effective at all It doesn’t mean I haven’t sometimes yelped in alarm or got annoyed either at work or home, as I definitely have, but it hasn’t been effective and certainly with my own DS who is 3 has just led to us shouting at one another which obviously is really poor parenting.

Parenting is hard and it isn’t always easy to know what the best approach is, especially if you are caught in a moment or struggling to meet the needs of more than one child.