I'm starting to think "shouty" parenting isn't ENTIRELY bad! [grin]

[MsMarch]

This is a slightly facetious post because I really don't think it is that simple or that there is a definitive right or wrong answer...

I shout at my children sometimes. Not a lot or excessively but, for example, if their behaviour is very poor I am likely to shout at them to stop it or tell them to leave the room or similar. We're not talking shrill screaming, but we're certainly not talking calm, "please stop doing that now" either. I have noticed similar with my siblings (not surprising I guess) and also a few friends.

I'm starting to notice that people who appear never to shout at their children, also seem to have a lot of behaviour issues. I suspect the real truth is that SOME parents who don't shout, ALSO don't have enough boundaries of any form and that's what's really happening, but from the outside, it just seems like the super patient kind ones are also the ones with the most badly behaved children.

In one case, I am actually concerned about a friend and her DH and their relationship. Every time we see them, her DH appears more and more worn down and exhausted and he has said a few times it's because he just so overwhelmed from the children and their behaviour. HER response is to say that the children are behaving that way because of x or y (usually sounds totally realistic so I understand where she's coming from) and that it's not their fault - and the dynamic is very much that he is NOT allowed to discipline or shout at the DC. The problem is that these are pre-teens so when the 9 year old is stealing food, making secret online purchases, refusing to allow anyone to watch TV if it's not what SHE wants to watch etc... even if it IS because she's exhausted and overwhelmed, its an issue. And her sister is similar but different - lots of screaming and shouting and refusal to listen, hitting out when frustrated etc.

This is an extreme example and a family I'm genuinely worried about as the mum is a very good friend, but I also saw it a lot over Christmas while we were out and about, "Rupert, please stop banging that lady's leg" accompanied by a wan smile at me as Rupert continued to whack me and so on.

In the case of my friend, there have been instances where I've been with them and my DD has behaved similarly, and I immediately jump on the behaviour. So DH and I are considering whether we need to spend less time with them simply because DD is not getting boundaries enforced there either.

This is an interesting point! You could be talking about one of my "school mum" friends. Extremely badly behaved child who just cries when she doesn't get her way and will do something extremely nasty but it's all "oh, my little peach. Why did that happen?" Rather than my approach of "don't bloody do that ever again!!!!" 😂
It's incredibly sad as she's basically made her daughter unable to live happily in society. She's a total outcast as all the other kids find her impossible (which she is!)
I'm not shouty, but there are certain times where you need to employ a different approach, and of course each child is different too.

Interesting as DS is very strong willed and gentle parenting works so much better than anything else. I don’t always do it because sometimes I am tired and without thinking snap ‘DS, leave that ALONE.’

But he’s so much more likely to leave it alone if I say ‘DS, come and play with this instead.’ I don’t want to be annoying here but it is also about recognising what is being communicated. I know on Tuesday the weather was terrible. I took DS and his sister to a rhyme time at a library in the morning but then in the afternoon we were cooped up in the house, DD was very fussy and crying as her teeth are coming through and she took so much attention DS just got pretty much ignored all afternoon in front of the TV. It wasn’t surprising he started to get silly around bedtime.

Being calm, positive, warm and firm are just so much nicer. And children from these homes have much better outcomes.

There could be other issues. Or the child could just be a greddy git. In what the op has described I'll go with the latter.

Op I've noticed similar in my friendship groups when the kids were growing up. They are all teens now and we've kept in touch but my kids don't want to socialise with them as they are "hard work".

But he’s so much more likely to leave it alone if I say ‘DS, come and play with this instead.’

Can I ask about this? Because I completely see your point here BUT... doesn't he need to learn that sometimes, there are things you just can't do/touch? Whereas if you're distracting him, he never actually realises that the reason is because he was doing something wrong? Genuinely asking, not being goody and also NOT suggesting the answer is to shout at him in this scenario!

Ditto, getting a bit "silly" around bedtime due to tiredness and boredom is fair enough and I think most of us would accept that. But what about when that turns into hitting a sibling or dancing in front of the telly another child is watching their 30 minutes of TV on?

My DS19 freely admits that he learnt to switch off when we applied the reasoned talk and explain method. He once asked his dad to just slap him to “just get it over with” DH can be shouty but if DS had misbehaved he would sit him down and talk to him about his behaviour. I remember one mum being quite concerned when DS pleaded with me not to tell his dad when he misbehaved. I had to explain that DS hated “the talks”.

I was and am much more short sharp shout type parent. I found rambling explanations fell on deaf ears. The words “NO”, “STOP”, “SHOES”, “BAG” and “ENOUGH” were very effective. Also following through with realistic and specific consequences were incredibly effective ways of disciplining.

The only reason we bought DS a Nintendo DS was so it could be taken off him for various lengths of time.

DS19 is a tad entitled at times but I knew he was likely to become a 6ft+ teenager at some stage and a very articulate one at that. But he has toed the line and we have had no problems with him as a teenager.

Boundaries have to be built early on. A reasoned explanation will not stop a determined toddler injuring themselves, shouting “no” and “stop” may be frightening but it’s better than weeks in a burns unit or worse.

I remember reading an article by a woman who realised when she was training her new puppy how so many of the techniques could be applied to child raising, she subsequently wrote a book about her experiences using dog training methods with her children. The use of single words rather than long convoluted conversations were a revelation. Going back to “shoes” , how many of us yell “shoes” while stood waiting to leave for school in the morning?

Yes - in this case I'd argue it's a sense of entitlement and a knowledge that there won't be consequences. She wanted that chocolate so she was going to get it. Just like she wanted the v-bucks on Fortnite so she went off and found a way to pay for it (using her mother's bank card). The first time it happened, the iPad had not been properly secured and so while my friend and her DH were upset, they blamed themselves and assumed their DD hadn't realised that there was an actual cost. But the second time happened AFTER they removed the ability to buy directly from the device and she still found a way round it.....

I agree, in terms of "raised voice warning", with "shouting" being my last resort. I also completely agree that in my years of working with children, the "naughty" ones have almost ALWAYS been the ones with parents who don't tell them off/don't raise their voices.

@MsMarch he does know.

So for example, when I had the baby he went through a stage of trying to hurt her. I moved away and said something along the lines of we don’t hit / kick. It worked. I am obviously not claiming I’ve never raised my voice but effective it isn’t - here anyway!

I don't shout at DS (learning disability and ASD) because all he would hear is noise. You can be firm and have boundaries without a raised voice.

My friend always lowered her voice when disciplining her children. Worked really well as they had to stop what they were doing and get close to her. Kids knew mum would follow through on discipline ie go home/ no tv etc. Never ever smacked them.
Me? More of a raised voice and death stare. Also followed through on discipline. Both sets of kids have turned out well - decent people who work etc.
The important thing is consistent boundaries. Children need and respect this.

I don’t shout at my kids but that doesn’t mean they don’t have boundaries or consequences.
Gentle parenting doesn’t mean no parenting it just means not shouting or threatening.
It seems to work for me and my kids so far, 16 year old, 13 year old and 5 year old.

I have two kids, both parented the same. One is super easy, listens to every rule, the other one is incredibly strong willed and doesn't always listen, gets very angry etc.

I actually think nature vs nurture is HUGE. I truly believe that a lot of things aren't necessarily down to how you parent but character of the child.

I was the shouty parent, I didn't mean to be and I'm trying very hard to not be anymore but I feel the damage is done. PeriM started when DS was around 7/8 (he's now 12) and I think he suffered at least two years of my PeriM rage before I got it under control with HRT. I desperately regret not being able to do more about it at the time but we were in the middle of the pandemic so everything got on top of me. I wouldn't go straight to shouting but after 3 or maybe 4 times of asking I'd shout and then he'd jump, be scared/upset and it's horrific. Now he's an anxious little boy at times and I feel he's wary of me which makes me sad and that's down to me. I wish I could get that time back and redo but I know I can't.

I don't think anyone's against the idea of firm calm boundaries expressed gently - I think the problem is when parents interpret the idea of any boundaries as somehow not in line with the principles of gentle parenting. My experience of it with fellow parents has been of adults who are terrified of conflict with their children and find it very difficult to be clear and firm with them (ironically it doesn't always mean that they aren't assertive, even aggressive, in other contexts). It's the most frustrating thing to witness, especially when you're close to the families involved. And in my experience it's led to unhappy kids, and parents who are almost frightened of their own children. That can't be good for anyone.

Oh this makes me so sad. I was that child too and I was afraid of my shouty, angry mum. I have battled lifelong anxiety as a result of this, had years of mental health support and definitely keep my distance from her emotionally and have done since I was a child tbh.

I dont like shouting but i think I maybe taking shouting as the flipping out, which i feel expresses lack of control and a bit hostile. (Mainly if they shout with cuss words i guess, that i find stresses me out)

The discipline shout i think of as when you raise your voice in an assertive tone. (Like in Drama when your taught to throw your voice so people at the back can hear but without that shouty aggression tone)

So i guess i am in between. I feel always softly telling them to stop doesnt get through to a young child and doesnt portray the difference between a thats not nice and a that will kill you if you continue. I feel they need to know a difference in behaviour by the reactions aswell.
But i cant bare any fear instilling, or venomous swearing. I wouldnt do anything I myself would feel hurt by. But feel raising voice and authorative tone in a controlled way can help the, that must stop immediately boundary time.

Although i guess i can understand that its hard to not react impulsively if you see your child about to hurt themselves or if you are at your flip switch exhaustion desperate mode.

@MiniCooperLover lockdown was a really extreme time. Please don’t be upset. I definitely wish I could do my DS first three years again, I know I’ve made countless mistakes but he is loved and he knows this as I’m sure your little boy does too.

I don't think you should beat yourself up here. You would ask him, and that didn't work. And then you shouted, which is not ideal as apparently he got a fright. But he's 12 now and you're not like this anymore? I think there is plenty of scope to work on his anxiety. Not least is that while it's good you're not out of control (I do know the Peri rage well), it's not bad for him to learn that people will be angry and upset sometimes.

I remember that DD as a toddler didn't cope with being told off - not even shouting, just generally being told off. But while we obviously had to be sensitive to that, we also had to improve her resilience.

I don't think the odd shout is the end of the world, it depends whether you're losing control and being aggressive with body language and tone etc at the same time.

Traditional parenting left kids to it a lot and so discipline was little and often - a good thorough bollocking was probably more appropriate if you were letting an 8 year old off to the park on their own and trusting them not to do anything they shouldn't.

Now kids are in our company the whole time, it's a drip, drip of constant correction that's probably not great for them either. Really I think the main determinant of behaviour is how you model to them and teach them things like asking for something assertively instead of nagging for it or grabbing it etc.

There are also lots of cultures that are just more animated in the way they speak than English, we're quite buttoned up - in many countries, a bit of shouting and waving is just part of communication and it doesn't do kids any harm.

I agree a gentle parenting approach is too often unclear about where the no-nonsense scorched earth boundaries are - eg if one of my kids runs into the road, I give an unequivocal bollocking, maybe not shouting but a full blast telling off. I've seen others give their kids a very gentle reprimand for the same and I just don't think it drives the message home in the same way.

I remember that DD as a toddler didn't cope with being told off - not even shouting, just generally being told off. But while we obviously had to be sensitive to that, we also had to improve her resilience

I find that attitude quite worrying tbh.

I think the OP is saying she sometimes did have to be told no or told something wasn’t kind or whatever.

I do find it quite weird how many people love to watch children get their comeuppance or triumphantly talk about how they’ll have no friends at school or whatever

Why? Some kids are sensitive about being told they've done something wrong and catastrophise it into thinking you don't approve of them as a person entirely, they need to be taught the difference.

All good parenting is based in a loving bond, really good discipline (once you get past the psychopath toddler stage) is about calling kids back to that relationship of respect and trust.

What is worrying about this? Teaching our children resilience, if it doesn't come naturally to them, is possibly one of the most important things we should be doing as parents as far as Im' concerned. The world is not always a nice and friendly and gentle place and things are often unfair. Our children need to be able to respond to the world as it is, not the world they want it to be.

But you really do have to improve their resilience. We have to bring kids up to be able to cope in (and contribute positively to) a world which doesn't revolve around them.

I work in higher education, and the cohorts of students coming through just now are really significantly different from previous cohorts in how challenging they find the demands of university life and study. They find it very very difficult to understand that they can't expect everything to be adjusted for them. I am seriously concerned about how they will manage as their generation steps into the roles which keep society functioning.

Resilience is built through confidence