I'm starting to think "shouty" parenting isn't ENTIRELY bad! [grin]

[MsMarch]

This is a slightly facetious post because I really don't think it is that simple or that there is a definitive right or wrong answer...

I shout at my children sometimes. Not a lot or excessively but, for example, if their behaviour is very poor I am likely to shout at them to stop it or tell them to leave the room or similar. We're not talking shrill screaming, but we're certainly not talking calm, "please stop doing that now" either. I have noticed similar with my siblings (not surprising I guess) and also a few friends.

I'm starting to notice that people who appear never to shout at their children, also seem to have a lot of behaviour issues. I suspect the real truth is that SOME parents who don't shout, ALSO don't have enough boundaries of any form and that's what's really happening, but from the outside, it just seems like the super patient kind ones are also the ones with the most badly behaved children.

In one case, I am actually concerned about a friend and her DH and their relationship. Every time we see them, her DH appears more and more worn down and exhausted and he has said a few times it's because he just so overwhelmed from the children and their behaviour. HER response is to say that the children are behaving that way because of x or y (usually sounds totally realistic so I understand where she's coming from) and that it's not their fault - and the dynamic is very much that he is NOT allowed to discipline or shout at the DC. The problem is that these are pre-teens so when the 9 year old is stealing food, making secret online purchases, refusing to allow anyone to watch TV if it's not what SHE wants to watch etc... even if it IS because she's exhausted and overwhelmed, its an issue. And her sister is similar but different - lots of screaming and shouting and refusal to listen, hitting out when frustrated etc.

This is an extreme example and a family I'm genuinely worried about as the mum is a very good friend, but I also saw it a lot over Christmas while we were out and about, "Rupert, please stop banging that lady's leg" accompanied by a wan smile at me as Rupert continued to whack me and so on.

In the case of my friend, there have been instances where I've been with them and my DD has behaved similarly, and I immediately jump on the behaviour. So DH and I are considering whether we need to spend less time with them simply because DD is not getting boundaries enforced there either.

This was exactly my experience, line by line

I agree. It’s constant shouting which is harmful and ineffectual.
Tbh I have no patience with super-human patient parents who are quiet and reasonable all the time when their children continue to misbehave.
But I do not approve of name-calling or smacking.

Pardon? How would grabbing my child to hurt them do me a favour?

I literally said that I wouldn’t allow my child to bang her leg. No timid ‘gentle hands’ from me or simpering laughs or ignoring it. They would be told a firm no and moved away.

I don’t accept anyone hurting my child and would do what I felt necessary to get that person away.

I will confess to being a shouty mother. Not like lost it screaming but general rule I will ask nicely twice and then use the sargeant major voice. Phones down, shoes on, car right now. Do not talk back, go to the car or screen ban. 10, 9,8...

In a way it works because they all know I'm serious and get in the car. In another way it's a bit rubbish as I've trained them to ignore my requests to get ready until I shout as they don't take being asked nicely seriously.

I teach and I raise my when needed which I do with my own kids. It works for most but there's a small number of children who must just be spoken to in that tone all the time and it doesn't even register with them which is so sad.

I once worked for a school with a 'no raised voices' policy for staff. It was a much nicer environment then some awful places I've worked at with teachers who yell at kids constantly (less common now). I had a particularly difficult class though and found myself telling them off in an exaggerated angry lowered voice so as to not be reprimanded by the head. Most of the staff developed these weird angry facial expressions to deal with unruly kids. I did break the rule one day when two boys climbed onto a low roof and were about to jump off. The whole playground froze at the sound of a teacher using a raised voice! Needless to say, no one tried it again on my duty!

Quite agree OP

I don’t think shouting is necesary in order to discipline your children. I do it though 😱 but I try not to and always feel guilty afterwards

I think you can be firm and fair without shouting all of the time but too many parenting styles now are far too soft. Go into any primary or secondary school in the country and see the kind of behaviour teachers are having to tolerate. It’s almost like some parents have devolved any parental responsibility for punishments or consequences to anyone but themselves as they don’t want the “fight”. Children want boundaries, believe it or not, it makes them feel safe. It’s up to adults to enforce them. Unfortunately many parents do not.

Thank you for being so honest.X

There is a point in every parent-child relationship where there is a Mexican standoff. This is a pivotal moment, don’t lose!

For me my 3 year old was given a 500ml bottle of Coke which she loved from her Nan. She refused to say thank you. I left that bottle of coke in plain sight for three days before she asked if she could say thanks to nanny. We called her, she said thanks nanny, i gave her the Coke. Which must have tasted amazing for her.

My other daughter once refused to leave the Pier at the seaside. Around 4 years old. She sat in the middle of a busy walkway and flat out refused! So i walked off and made it all the way to the end before she stood up and ran to me.

Now they are teenagers and are fairly well behaved. The odd battle of wills. But i now understand why growing up in the 80s parenting was brutal lol.

It is very much an Alpha mentality until they are too big and tower over you! Lol

Kids should be treated and disciplined like dogs. Pounce on bad behaviour immediately in an assertive and calm manner and avoid shouting if at all possible. Be consistent in your approach so they know the boundaries.

I find it hard to watch lovely friends failing to discipline their kids successfully too. In my mind, discipline means to teach. Some of my friends have kids that are awful for my kids and I to be around, because they have not learned how to get the balance right between what they want to do in any given moment and considering others AKA they have not been taught boundaries. I think those parents do snap and shout sometimes, but are still not showing their kids consistently where the boundaries are. I think most kids just need a different tone when they have crossed, or are in danger of crossing a line and a lot of repetition and consistency. I generally try to avoid being around awfully behaved kids because it stresses me out.

PS I read a book on emotionally intelligent parenting once. I bought into it for a few weeks. One day, we were on a family hike and my son aged about 3-4 was crying and mewling the whole time. I was empathizing, listening and being kind and asking him to use his words, but he was still carrying on. I can’t remember why, or if there even was an understandable reason. After about an hour of this, my boundaries and my consideration for others kicked in and I told him in a terse voice that if he did not stop by the time I counted to 3, I would throw his beloved stuffie off the hill. It worked and he immediately stopped. That was a stupid threat to make - I normally only threaten things I will 100% do if they don’t stop, but the point is that he needed a boundary and he needed to know I meant business. The kindness and empathy alone did not work!

The kindness and empathy alone did not work!

I think this is important. I was thinking about in the context of doing something that is anti-social/disruptive etc. My friend's view is that she will ask them, and be kind because she understands they're frustrated and tired and can't communicate properly. I get that. But I found myself thinking, "but at some point they have to learn they can't do things that cause problems for other people and so when do you think that will happen? Are you just hoping they'll magically learn not to jump on the furniture?"

My children are, quite frankly, little hypochondriacs. So it's always a bit of a fine line between between supportive and empathetic and telling them to toughen up sometimes. It's not that they're lying about having a sore leg or whatever, but they tend to blow it totally out of proportion. But If I'm ONLY empathetic, I know they'll never learn how to deal with the daily knocks of life and they'll also believe that it's okay to have a complete meltdown/skip school/cancel training/use up medical time because of something that absolutely can be dealt with at home.

I remember reading a book which came out in the early 70s by Dr Robin Skinner - who was then an eminent family therapist. In it he said that children survived over-strict parenting much better than over-permissive parenting. He wasn’t talking about physical or emotional abuse - just the ability to put in firm boundaries. Everything I have seen in the parenting of my family and friends since confirms what he said

Really, I shouted at my kids. They knew if I shouted then they had been really naughty and they stopped what they were doing. It hasnt done my kids any harm at all. All 3 of them have grown up to be hard working adults, 2 of them with degrees (the 3rd and youngest daughter starting uni in Sept). The 2 eldest have well paid jobs and are financally independent of me. They both have loving partners and lots of friends. We still have a good relationship and I see them weekly. My niece on the otherhand was never shouted at, and was spolit rotton. She has "mental health' issues such as self harming and left school after failing all her exams. My parents shouted at me, they evan hit me if I over stepped the mark. Have I turned out ok, yes I have. I also have a degree and a good job. I learnt to respect people, I thing millenials and kids these days do not. I think shouting at naughty children is perfectly ok, aslong as you dont do aggressively or hit them. How else are you meant to discipline them. The naughty step is just a joke.

Agree, and for their sake, I want my kids not just to not do things that are actively naughty but also not to do things that are just irritating or unpalatable to other people. The logical conclusion of being tired is that you go to bed earlier, not that you are allowed to whinge, sulk or misbehave in the interim.

I think someone who thinks kids stealing food means there is a wider issue have never looked after a child who just wants to eat biscuits and sweets all day and drink gallons of coke.

Interesting discussion. I haven’t read the full thread yet, as wanted to add our dynamic before I fall asleep reading!

My husband is a very shouty person. And grumpy. Gotten worse the older he’s become. I feel like it’s something we argue over a lot because I think the way he talks to the children is awful, he thinks I’m too soft. But his go to is to immediately shout (he does it to me too - if there’s something he wants, or something he doesn’t like, or wants to shut down a conversation etc, he just yells). I have noticed as a result the kids give him quite a bit of attitude, outrightly do not like him (they’ve all told me they think their dad is a dick and worse), have told he they wish he were dead, and usually have to be “asked” by him multiple times to do any jobs around the house. In contrast, it is extremely rare that I ever have to ask them more than once because they always come immediately or once they’ve finished whatever they are doing. Is it because I tend not to shout? Maybe. Is it because I ask them nicely (“would you mind helping with x” or “please can you do y” etc compared with him telling “come and do x NOW”). Highly likely. Or maybe a bit of both.

Now don’t get me wrong, I’m far from a perfect parent. And I definitely do yell on occasion. But my kids know I do it so rarely that if I’m yelling, it’s either because it’s unsafe, or because they’ve pushed my limits that day.

What was my point? I don’t think it’s as cut and dried as shouty good or bad. If it was just me and I only ever asked nicely, maybe they wouldn’t respond because they don’t appreciate how much nicer it is to be spoken to that way compared to the shouting? Likewise if it were just him and shouting was all they knew, maybe they’d be good little soldiers following orders because they didn’t know that there’s a nicer way? It’s easy to judge other families from the outside though but we don’t know what’s really going on. I know I’m more likely to shout in public, maybe I feel I’ll be judged if people don’t see me disciplining bad behaviour? Other people might be the other way around - only shout behind closed doors?

It’s easy enough to be boundaried without shouting.