I'm starting to think "shouty" parenting isn't ENTIRELY bad! [grin]

[MsMarch]

This is a slightly facetious post because I really don't think it is that simple or that there is a definitive right or wrong answer...

I shout at my children sometimes. Not a lot or excessively but, for example, if their behaviour is very poor I am likely to shout at them to stop it or tell them to leave the room or similar. We're not talking shrill screaming, but we're certainly not talking calm, "please stop doing that now" either. I have noticed similar with my siblings (not surprising I guess) and also a few friends.

I'm starting to notice that people who appear never to shout at their children, also seem to have a lot of behaviour issues. I suspect the real truth is that SOME parents who don't shout, ALSO don't have enough boundaries of any form and that's what's really happening, but from the outside, it just seems like the super patient kind ones are also the ones with the most badly behaved children.

In one case, I am actually concerned about a friend and her DH and their relationship. Every time we see them, her DH appears more and more worn down and exhausted and he has said a few times it's because he just so overwhelmed from the children and their behaviour. HER response is to say that the children are behaving that way because of x or y (usually sounds totally realistic so I understand where she's coming from) and that it's not their fault - and the dynamic is very much that he is NOT allowed to discipline or shout at the DC. The problem is that these are pre-teens so when the 9 year old is stealing food, making secret online purchases, refusing to allow anyone to watch TV if it's not what SHE wants to watch etc... even if it IS because she's exhausted and overwhelmed, its an issue. And her sister is similar but different - lots of screaming and shouting and refusal to listen, hitting out when frustrated etc.

This is an extreme example and a family I'm genuinely worried about as the mum is a very good friend, but I also saw it a lot over Christmas while we were out and about, "Rupert, please stop banging that lady's leg" accompanied by a wan smile at me as Rupert continued to whack me and so on.

In the case of my friend, there have been instances where I've been with them and my DD has behaved similarly, and I immediately jump on the behaviour. So DH and I are considering whether we need to spend less time with them simply because DD is not getting boundaries enforced there either.

I think there is a difference between short sharp shock shouting to prevent harm, rather than the "hairdryer treatment" my dad used to give me where there was no escape.

I can only observe what I see, but I do have a friend who is doing the gentle parenting, but her child is just a nightmare, and very unpleasant to be around, cannot cope without her mum in eyesight, or having a conversation which other kids her age seem to be able to manage for a short time.

I am not promoting shouting.
But this argument of would you do this to your boss, colleague or mum is an irrelevant one. I also would not tell my boss or colleague they have to get their shoes on now, they can't wear what they want to wear e.g. swimming costume on a snow day, or they can not stay at home rather than going to nursery when I am going to work.
Children are not adults. We do treat them differently to adults.

You can walk away from adults. You don't need to control them and you are not responsible for their wellbeing.

You can't walk away from your children and you do need to exercise some degree of control over them for their safety and wellbeing and the safety and wellbeing of others.

I don't really think the "you wouldn't do this to X, Y or Z" arguments have any merit. If my boss/a colleague was shouting at me, I'd report to HR. If my husband or a family member was, I'd walk away. If another adult was physically attacking me, I'd call the police.

My son is autistic and speech delayed, and I very rarely have to raise my voice but sometimes a quick shout does the same trick that having a long detailed discussion with NT kids have about WHY we shouldn't do something because it gives off a sense of danger and I only ever really shout when my kid is about to do something like jump from the top stair or try and somersault off the back of the sofa, or do something that will immediately trigger an allergy.

I wouldn't say I shout when I'm just a bit annoyed though.

Equally I think it's ok for people to show human emotional reactions to extreme behaviour because kids are sometimes overbearing, like the rest of humanity, and it's ok to show that people can have emotions.

We do however live next to a "shouting house" and it's all day every day, and I think they must have shares in vocalzones or something.

I see parents giving tiny children long detailed explanations that they do not have the concentration ability to follow. Small children need short simple sentences or words to follow and understand what you are asking them.

I don't think you can know the details of another family. Different kids respond differently in situations versus how you may expect. My own children, one will crumple if he steps out of line and is told off but is generally well behaved. One is totally rogue but will be more oppositional if we shout so firm and distracting is the best solution. In the case of the child banging your leg, this us exactly the behaviour that we would encounter and a stern telling off would mean he did it all the more. Removing him from the situation is much more effective but often impossible for example in a crowded theatre with other kids to consider and trapped between people. Some people have very difficult situations and that smile to you is perhaps a cry for you to understand, help or move your leg away rather than judging.

I feel this is a really important point. There's lots of talk about how children should have agency and we wouldn't want to be treated like that so why do it to children... but then, I'd be pretty upset if someone told me I couldn't have a glass of wine of an evening but I certainly feel no guilt telling my children they can't. Because they are CHILDREN. And their bodies and brains are not the same as those of an adult. And we need to a) keep them safe and b) help them to mature their brains and bodies. Thank you for articulating this, it's so helpful for me.

Ditto, if I ask an adult friend to take her shoes off in my house, she may roll her eyes or think inwardly I'm an idiot, but she's an adult so she'll comply because she's learnt how to respond appropriately in such situations. So I don't NEED to shout at her to get her to do it!

Sorry, but no, I disagree. A child in this situation could have his leg held by his mother to stop him. She could have moved herself closer to me and him away from me.

This is actually the exact attitude I have a problem with. The child's behaviour is a problem and it is up to the parent to deal with it. Of course, a 18 month old having a melt down and screaming and tantrum I would not judge the parent - this is just natural and normal behaviour and frustrating though it is, there's not a lot the parent can do. But a child who is constantly bashing ME can absolutely be stopped.

@Northe It is totally unreasonable for you to expect another adult to put up with being hit by your child. If you can't stop them, you have to take them out. No one is ever trapped in a theatre, you just prefer to let an adult be hit than deal with your child.

As a social worker, I've seen a lot of extremes of parenting and harm. In relation to this thread (ignoring extremes such as abuse or complete lack of parental guidance) ...

I've seen gentle parenting , low boundaries and guidance - which is what I think a lot of people are mistakenly doing in their pursuit of gentleness/empathy. I've seen awful results due to this style of parenting.

I've seen shouty, reactive parenting, and the resulting damage, and lack of control/follow through.

As many have said...middle ground! The only things I truly see working are:

• Empathy and demonstrating empathy/explicit conversations about feelings
• Helping children see what self-regulation looks like
• Consistency (or a strong network that can help with that)
• Firm boundaries from a young age! I'm talking toddlerhood.
• Appropriate gentleness
• Reminding children in real life terms that yes they have rights but as a counterbalance, they also have responsibilities.
• Logical consequences!
• Instilling of respect for parents, others and

Good enough parenting is good enough for most kids. No one is perfect.

Also! Follow through from consequences even when it's rubbish!

I’ve really found this thread interesting and agree wholeheartedly with much of what you say Op. I have actually seen both ends of the spectrum in play: I have one set of parent friends who pride themselves on NEVER shouting at their child but it’s got to the ridiculous point now where, when they gently tell her to stop doing something, she cries and insists that they apologise - and they do! It’s happened several times, so not a one off. Another mum friend is constantly shouting at her DS and he clearly now doesnt even react unless she REALLY loses her cool and even then he seems to find it amusing at first.

With the first set of friends, it can be awkward e.g. when we’re eating out and their daughter is climbing over chairs and running around and my DD knows I won’t allow her to do that in a restaurant. More than once DD has said “but Josies doing it” and I just use the age old “I don’t care what Josies doing, I’m not her mummy” I’m sure her parents have noticed this and probably think I’m too firm but I can take my DD anywhere and know she won’t be a nuisance, and that’s important to me as it means we can enjoy our time out as a family.

I have found it easier to be firmer with my children as they’ve got older. Many reasons for this I think: there’s the obvious “they’re old enough to understand what they’re doing is wrong, or what I’m telling them”, but also I'm conscious of preparing them for school and discipline in an outside setting. Plus even if I do feel I haven’t reacted well I can apologise and explain why it happened, and again, they are old enough to understand that now. I’m actually really comfortable holding boundaries and imposing consequences now (whereas I wasn’t when my DD was tiny, I hated seeing her upset!) as I know it’s doing them good long term.

Reminding children in real life terms that yes they have rights but as a counterbalance, they also have responsibilities.

Oh yes, this. I have had a lot of conversations with my DC about this. Sometimes I will be upset by something eg they've broken something. And they'll say, "it's not my fault - I didn't break it on purpose but I got a fright when the dog barked." And I will tell them that I understand that but that they are still responsible and have to help me clean up/ apologise etc.

In the same way that if I hit someone, and hurt them, with my car - of course I don't do it on purpose. One assumes I made a mistake, or the other person did, or both of us. But I am the one driving the very big and dangerous piece of machinery so I have to take responsibility when things happen.

I also think a lot of parents take the path of least resistance whilst children are small, then resort to wild flailing when kids get older and less easy to manage. I think some parents assume that very young children will automatically grow or if behaviour, or that school will teach them. If course by the time they're in school, it's too late, as they're not used to being told what to do.

I was v strict when mine were little, so I don't need to be so strict now they're older, because those foundations are there. Realistically, if they decided to do what the fuck they wanted, there's very little I could actually do. But ultimately, they've entered into a kind of social contract; a microcosm of what we, as members of society do.

@TheMoth I totally agree with you. It is way harder when they are young to teach them what is okay and what is not while some parents just let their children do what they want. But it does pay off.
I see parents with slightly older children who did not do the early work frankly not have a good family life. Bedtimes/sleep are a battle ground or their children do not sleep much, family outings are fraught, meals out difficult, and other families do not want play dates or to socialise.
On a personal level, I always wanted to enjoy family life.

Absolutely. And if it's impossible to take them out, the parent needs to physically hold them and prevent the harm. When my older DC was 2, we were on a plane and DC would not stop kicking the seat in front. I ended up physically holding DC's leg to prevent the kicking until they got the message.

For me, the hard boundary comes when parents are "externalising" the negative consequences of their children's behaviour, i.e. leaving these for other people to deal with. Parents can parent their children using whatever methods they find most effective at home, but should not expect strangers to put up with unacceptable behaviour.

See, even this, I know is given to be the ‘right’ way to do it by lots of people, but I just can’t get on board with it at all. I feel that the message should end on ‘we don’t hit people’ or some variation thereof. I don’t want to tactically offer my kids an alternative way to express anger or frustration because first of all I think it dilutes the message of the very important sentence before, but also because most (not all) of the time it’s an inappropriate and unhelpful emotion to express outwardly even when you feel it. And I know the idea is that that makes unhealthily repressed adults but I can’t help that feel a bit of good old fashioned repression where appropriate is what keeps adults in strong relationships and gainful employment.

@MiddleParking I agree with you.

I'd have shouted at Rupert to stop hitting me after the first whack.

@MiddleParking . Agree 100%. Some behaviour is completely unacceptable regardless of the reasons/feelings behind it, and kids need to know this.

The short snswer is everyone believes their way is the right way. Who knows ??

I think that having boundaries has helped my kids adapt to school and make lots of friends there. I’m not saying that they are angels in terms of behaviour but school is much more tolerable when you have friends. I’d imagine that your friend’s children struggle at places like school where other kids aren’t going to tolerate being kicked.

Gentle parenting =/= permissive parenting. Your friend might think she's being gentle but she's just being permissive.

I practice gentle parenting, but that doesn't mean my voice never gets raised. It just means my voice never gets raised in anger, which is the important thing.

Kids sometimes don't listen, or sometimes they need to stop what they're doing very quickly (because it's dangerous, for example). Those times, I might raise the volume of my voice to attract their attention quickly etc. Kids need that sometimes.

The fact that your friend's children's father "isn't allowed" to discipline them sounds concerning? Parenting is a joint effort and should be a discussion, not a case of "one of us makes all the decisions and the other one just goes with it". I wouldn't be surprised if the kids can also sense the lack of cohesion in their parent's relationship and that's contributing to the troublesome behavior.

Kids need boundaries and consequences just as much as they need kisses and hugs and understanding.

Shouting is a form of abuse. It indicates a lack of control and is ineffective in managing behaviour. It’s part of the escalation trap.

Wow strong disagree.

Repressing our negative emotions doesn’t make them go away, it just means they come back out in other ways instead:

Outwards to others as passive aggression, manipulation, resentment

or back on ourselves - the saying depression is anger turned inwards is both classic and true.

Anger is there expressed or not.

but if safely expressed it’s like a storm that blows out and then those feelings are resolved

repressing it means it will come out next time something annoys you, even bigger.

and eventually repression becomes such a habit you squash down the wonderful and joyful feelings too and you loose the capacity to ever feel relaxed and comfortable with yourself as keeping all those repressed emotions in check takes so much effort all the time.

as my children grow I am showing and teaching them healthy ways to express and process their emotions.

Screaming and thrashing about outside the supermarket is fine at 5.

By 10 I’ve taught them to keep it under control until they get home, and express it there in private.

and so on.

lack of literacy and acceptance and safe expression of the full range of our own emotions, including the negative ones, is the root cause of so many issues like abusive behaviour