I'm starting to think "shouty" parenting isn't ENTIRELY bad! [grin]

[MsMarch]

This is a slightly facetious post because I really don't think it is that simple or that there is a definitive right or wrong answer...

I shout at my children sometimes. Not a lot or excessively but, for example, if their behaviour is very poor I am likely to shout at them to stop it or tell them to leave the room or similar. We're not talking shrill screaming, but we're certainly not talking calm, "please stop doing that now" either. I have noticed similar with my siblings (not surprising I guess) and also a few friends.

I'm starting to notice that people who appear never to shout at their children, also seem to have a lot of behaviour issues. I suspect the real truth is that SOME parents who don't shout, ALSO don't have enough boundaries of any form and that's what's really happening, but from the outside, it just seems like the super patient kind ones are also the ones with the most badly behaved children.

In one case, I am actually concerned about a friend and her DH and their relationship. Every time we see them, her DH appears more and more worn down and exhausted and he has said a few times it's because he just so overwhelmed from the children and their behaviour. HER response is to say that the children are behaving that way because of x or y (usually sounds totally realistic so I understand where she's coming from) and that it's not their fault - and the dynamic is very much that he is NOT allowed to discipline or shout at the DC. The problem is that these are pre-teens so when the 9 year old is stealing food, making secret online purchases, refusing to allow anyone to watch TV if it's not what SHE wants to watch etc... even if it IS because she's exhausted and overwhelmed, its an issue. And her sister is similar but different - lots of screaming and shouting and refusal to listen, hitting out when frustrated etc.

This is an extreme example and a family I'm genuinely worried about as the mum is a very good friend, but I also saw it a lot over Christmas while we were out and about, "Rupert, please stop banging that lady's leg" accompanied by a wan smile at me as Rupert continued to whack me and so on.

In the case of my friend, there have been instances where I've been with them and my DD has behaved similarly, and I immediately jump on the behaviour. So DH and I are considering whether we need to spend less time with them simply because DD is not getting boundaries enforced there either.

But confidence is built through achievement - sometimes by failing and then persevering. You can't just hand confidence to a kid yourself, it has to be something that they can genuinely experience through their own actions.

I'm not sure I understand this statement. I agree the two go hand in hand, but I think I see it the other way round - confidence comes when you are resilient enough to fail and try again anyway, which teaches you that you CAN achieve things. Someone who achieves things easily every time may well be confident, but they're unlikely to be resilient. Again, DD is a sort of example here - she's smart and articulate and a lot of things come very easily to her. It's been hard for her to realise that isn't always the case and that being confident isn't always enough, sometimes she has to work hard, practice practice practice, try again etc.

I remember someone else's child started hitting mine and I told that child "you don't hit, that's very unkind". Child's parent did not enforce anything, child ended up with cuddles and kisses from mum ... We left and then a couple of hours later on Facebook was about daughter getting a nice meal out and treats. Wtf!

I think "helicopter" parenting is the worst, I know a family like this, it's very very weird, every action of their child is analysed and discussed.

Another teacher here! Shouting is usually a reaction rather than a tactic imo. It's a loss of control. Shouting at your child on very rare occasions, e.g. when they have done something dangerously stupid, can make them think 'Holy shit! If mum is shouting like that, then what I did must be really bad', which may be effective. If you shout regularly, it stops having an impact.

I'm never quite sure what 'gentle parenting' means. People seem to use it to describe anything from 'calm but firm' to 'let them do whatever the hell they like'. What works is having expectations and consequences, and being consistent about them.

I tried to add this to my post as an example.
I agree that parents who manage children by reasoning generally have the worst behaved children. Not necessarily badly behaved but lacking in boundaries. I remember one couple who asked when DS went to bed, they were struggling with their own son’s bedtime and said that when asked to go to bed he just said no. It came as no surprise since they didn’t believe in punishment or discipline in any form. He walked all over them and probably still does. He only came to one play date with me ( age 5) and that was one too many. He basically tipped all DS’s toys into a huge heap in the middle of his room. He had no idea how to play. I was lucky, another friend invited him and he did the same with her sons toys, then went into her en-suite and tipped all her toiletries ( bath oils, perfume and makeup) all over the floor. He emptied every bottle. She didn’t discover the mess until he had left and had to replace the carpet. To this day ( 15yrs on ) she hasn’t told his parents. Another mutual friend was subjected to regular family visits, he said that it cost him up to £100 a visit in repairs. He jokingly told me that it would be cheaper to pay them not to visit. The trouble was that the parents were oblivious to these incidents because we were all too polite to tell them what he’d done. It didn’t help that mum was a solicitor that specialised in medical negligence and a bit of a Rottweiler so no one wanted to upset her. Just a shame she wasn’t a Rottweiler as a parent.

I don’t think being shouty is the issue it’s being firm and consistent and following through. Plenty of shouty parents are none of these. What doesn’t necessarily work is reasoning with a young child, they just don’t understand reasoning and often equate it with a bribe.

The easiest form of discipline is to remove them from a situation. It very rapidly shows them that if they misbehave they are the one to miss out. So many parents fail to do this because it also means they are missing out. You only have to do it a couple of times for them to realise that you are not open to negotiation or reasoning.
I have immense respect for any parent who does this even if it affects my DS’s enjoyment because he also learns from the experience. He’s 19 now so no longer applies to most things, however he respects the general house rules as an adult.

That’s age dependent though surely?

A very young child isn’t going to knit together not having a nice meal out with treats with hitting someone earlier.

You only have to do it a couple of times for them to realise that you are not open to negotiation or reasoning

Unfortunately that’s not true. It would be good it life was indeed that simple.

I'm looking after a child of a shouty parent today and it's an absolute pain in the arse. The kid doesn't listen to anything but shouting and swearing. So it takes telling her something basic three or four times for her to listen. Don't get me started on the lack of boundaries either. Madam thinks because no one is shouting and swearing she can do what she likes. She won't be coming back.

It was the lack of apology, mum not discipling just lots of cuddles and reassurance and girl hissing at us like a spoilt brat and then the nice treats afterwards on FB rubbed it in.

It’s annoying when parents don’t apologise or make any sort of effort to intervene. I’m just not sure’revenge’ does anyone any good/

There’s a difference between shouting and having firm boundaries though. I very rarely raise my voice at my DDs or my class at school, but I do have absolutely rock solid boundaries that they don’t cross. They know this because I consistently enforce those boundaries with consequences.

Having said that, everyone loses the plot every now and then. I have been known to be loud and sharp with a child messing about with a glue gun in DT, or with my own DDs when they are winding each other up. A rare shouter gets attention quickly on the odd occasion that they do raise their voice!

I only feel confident in this kind of thing because of my experience as a teacher though. There is so much contradictory behaviour management advice out there now for parents, it’s no wonder that people get confused.

It's tricky, and i think it's more about tone than 'shouting'. The trouble is my DH is a gentle giant, but if he was to shout at my young DD she would be scared, and I don't want that. I would never want to cause my children to feel scared or intimidated in their home. I honestly don't think it would achieve anything good. The only time we ever raise our voice if is she is on the verge of doing something dangerous. We do however speak in a firm tone very different to our normal voices so she knows we're serious when we need her to.

Maybe she needs to get used to people shouting in the 'real world' but I don't ever want to use fear as a parenting tool.

I suppose it depends on whether the child actually wants to be there. There are occasions when insisting that they stay would be a greater punishment. I have done that as well, refused to leave when DS didn’t want to be there. They obviously have worked out that poor behaviour may be rewarding. It’s your job as a parent to figure it out.
DSis and I quickly worked out that particular rouse and our DC know they can’t pull a fast one with us. It can be a battle of wits at times. You just have to come up with different ways of inconveniencing them as they grow older.

Eventually they turn the corner into adulthood and they “get it”. Unfortunately some are mid thirties before that happens.

DH and I have both faced life threatening illness over the last two years and DS has grown up over night. His behaviour changed rapidly and is adulting well. There are still a few areas he needs to iron out but if we do leave him orphaned in his early twenties he will cope. Hopefully we won’t but it has been a wake up call for him. His best friends mum couldn’t believe how much I expected of him, but then she was still packing school bags when her DC we’re in yr10.

Yes, I can find myself shouting at DN at LOT more than my own children because he literally doesn't respond to anything else. I do NOT like it and spend a lot of time practising my "firm non shouty" voice for his visits.

I used to do gentle parenting and it made the whole family miserable- but I think it depends on the kid. I can imagine it would suit children who are generally predisposed to following rules and emotional sensitivity. My DS is NOT that kid. I'm an ex-teacher and used to manage classroom behaviour totally confidently, but I also had an abusive childhood and found the whole process of learning to discipline my own child quite traumatic. I constantly asked myself 'am I being abusive' when I was actually doing perfectly normal boundary setting. The huge amount of conflicting parenting advice available to parents now doesn't help, I felt constantly at sea.

So gentle parenting seemed very attractive- although I think it depends on your definition of gentle parenting, which seems to range from total permissiveness to normal, firm parenting, depending on who you ask.

We suddenly had a wake-up call when we realised our DS's behaviour was escalating, to the extent that he would throw objects at us and destroy things when told to stop doing something/asked to do something he didn't like. Labelling his feelings infuriated him (and, I think, all this 'you feel angry, it's hard when you can't xyz' actually reinforced his feelings that life was terribly, terribly unfair even when what was being asked of him was minor). He hated talking through his behaviour, and I realised that he was misbehaving so often that a huge amount of time was being spent talking about feelings, gentle hands, why we need to be kind etc to the point that the focus on his feelings (usually anger/frustration) was really unhealthy. Distraction never worked, he's super stubborn.

Tried 123 Magic in a moment of desperation and his behaviour literally transformed in about 3 days. Misbehaviour is swiftly dealt with, so less time is spent on reasoning/talking through and more time on actually enjoying time together. He's happier and I'm happier. On the topic of shouting, I actually raised my voice more when I was a 'gentle' parent because the constant struggle to parent him was so incredibly stressful that I'd lose patience. I think it depends on what you mean by shouting- proper lost control screaming is unpleasant for everyone, but a louder, firmer 'I mean business' tone is fine. Sometimes they need that to get them to pay attention and know they've crossed the line.

I've learnt valuable things from a lot of the gentle parenting content I consumed- talking about feelings is important, we just don't do it when he's mid-tantrum (although tantrums are thankfully rare now) because he's in no position to take anything in when he's furious. Choices good- I offer choices a lot, but only when it's not putting me at an inconvenience. Basically, I want him to grow up feeling that he's an important person in a family and community of people who are equally important. I've learnt that with most things in life, a middle ground is usually the best way!

I never shout and my children behave beautifully and pretty much always have. I don’t like to brag but it’s a fact. I am sure I am lucky that their lives have a lot of luck and stability etc so it’s not that they behave well because I don’t shout. But respectful parenting hasn’t made them badly behaved!!

shouting is violent and is horrible for children.

Well 'gentle' parenting never claims to ensure you have well behaved children (in the way society would normally think of good behaviour). It claims to create well balanced adults. But gentle parenting is ALL about putting in boundaries (in other ways than shouting), lack of boundaries will just make a narcissistic, frantic adult

DS1 worked out as a toddler that when you're bored of soft play, it's time to randomly sink your teeth into another child and mummy will grab you and march you off to sweet freedom 🤦‍♀️
I did get wise to that one after a few goes. I got better at reading the danger signs and if it wasn't avoided, he then had to sit with me for 5 mins before going so didn't get the instant reward.

Doing "stern teacher face" at DS2 totally fails because he arranges his facial features into an astonishing replica of mine and kills the moment. That expression makes towering teenagers quake too.

They get out of the house in the morning with brisk, firm, one-word instructions. Nice and gentle does not cut through tiredness and executive dysfunction. Tried, tested, and failed.

It must be lovely to have children that can be parented quietly and civilly, and that is my first line of approach, but it just doesn't work universally and some children need more variation and experimenting.

I once had to be called over to DS2's teacher at the end of the day. His misdemeanor had been attention based rather than deliberate or naughty/ harmful, but the teacher took great effort to gravely explain the situation. My reaction was to turn to DS2 and say "that's not very impressive is it" and the teacher visibly relaxed- he was more stressed about my reaction than the actual incident. He admitted that one after and we still laugh about that one.

I think boundaries and positive communication is also key - saying no and meaning it is important as well as knowing which battles to pick! That said you could hear me shouting on the school run in the morning when I had already asked 157 times (nicely) for the kids to put their shoes on! 🤣🤣

I agree with this. The expectation that parents remain ‘in character’ 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, for 12+ years, is utterly unrealistic and gives a false impression to children that adults don’t have feelings or needs, it’s all about them and they can basically behave as they wish.

I think society has forgotten that en masse we are raising children to be future adults not their ‘wild, fierce spirited little selves’.

1. Too much 'gentle' parenting is not done properly as intended, so ends up being permissive with the result that the children are horrendously misbehaved.
2. There is nothing wrong with children learning that sometimes people get angry but that you can move on from this. Rather they learn healthy ways to manage anger in their families than fall apart the minute someone is angry with them in the real world.

Agree with the firm vs angry or shouty distinction.

as a parent you SHOULD be modelling staying in control.

i very rarely actually shout at my children and have only actually lost my temper three times in 10 years.

(and those times I have apologised to them for that afterwards - no one is perfect and that’s modelling taking responsibility and making amends)

i am firm though. Sometimes VERY firm. So a loud clear

NO WE DO NOT HIT PEOPLE and then I’d firmly but gently physically remove them if they didn’t stop immediately.

then I’d repeat in a more normal
voice. ‘We don’t hit each other. If you are angry or upset about something how can I help you express that safely?’

i can be irritable and impatient at the end of a long day - am trying to manage myself better on that, which includes being straight with them when I’m tired and have had enough or are not in the mood for something that is ok at other times. and I again take responsibility and apologise if I realise later I was too hard on them

then I’d repeat in a more normal
voice. ‘We don’t hit each other. If you are angry or upset about something how can I help you express that safely?’

And what was their response?

There’s definitely a middle ground to be had. I’m a teacher and see a wide variety of parenting approaches and then experience the results of that in my classroom. I’m also a mum to young children so fully understand it from the opposite perspective too whilst also being a witness to the behaviour of my friends’ children at parties etc…

The really shouty parents are ineffective because that’s all the kids hear day in day out so they just switch off and blank out the noise. Generally, these children aren’t scared at all, they actually just don’t give a monkeys.

Similarly, the non shouting let’s talk about everything calmly and analyse your behaviour carefully later at home parents are also completely ineffective. These children spend so much time talking and over analysing what happened and why they did it that they actually end up having no idea what’s going on and never take responsibility for their actions. These are the parents that will tell me at the gate that the reason their son beat another child up is because they’re coming down with a cold and so it’s not fair they have a consequence of missing some play time. These children manipulate and learn to say what their parents want to hear as they know that their parents rill always make excuses for them. Whilst talking through things and listening to our children is important, so are consequences and taking responsibility for your actions.

Children need consistency and they need boundaries. They need to know right from wrong and they need to take responsibility for when they get it wrong and learn from it. You don’t need to shout to do this but you do need to be firm whilst also being fair.

Everyone loses it and shouts once in a while though - if you haven’t are you even human?!