TORY VOTERS: Keir has a message for you....

[ShippingForecastSnooze]

He said: “If you are a Conservative voter who despairs of this, if you look in horror at the descent of your party into the murky waters of populism and conspiracy, with no argument for economic change; if you feel our children need a party that conserves, that fights for our union, our environment, the rule of law, family life, the careful bond between this generation and the next – then let me tell you, Britain already has one. And you can join it – it’s this Labour party.”

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I thought we were discussing women’s safety - that’s what you said in the post I responded to. When some women are flagrantly taking huge risks with their own safety I can’t take this seriously.

Starmer🤮 no thanks

^In England and Wales there were 230 trans people in prison as of March 2022.
According to ministry of justice (MoJ) statistics, 187 trans people reported their legal gender as male, and 43 as female. Of these people, 181 were in male prisons and 49 were in womens. Six transgender women were in women’s prisons.^

Six people. Six. And under a Tory government.

This!

All these votes feeling like they need to justify voting tory and using the reason that labour doesn't know what a woman makes no sense, they spout this while they watch males being put in womens prisons by tories, they watch womens spaces being attacked by tories m, they watch our kids being allowed to be taught nonsesense under a the tories they sit back a watch the tories showing that they do not care about women. Yeah, better option

No. It’s life long Labour voters like me who will likely not vote or spoil their ballot papers because we refuse to vote for the demise of natal women as a distinct category.

I’m a lifelong Labour voter who spoilt my paper in 2019 because of Corbyn. It actually staggers me that someone could vote for antisemitism but withdraw their vote for a nebulous load of catastrophising.

Yeah - no thanks. I don’t vote Tory and I won’t vote Labour.

@blossomtoes 'There was a recent thread filled with women determined to claim their right to do whatever they like and run in isolated places after dark. A lot of us seem to be deliberately putting ourselves in dangerous situations.'

I live in an isolated place. It's my home & related to my job.

For six months of the year (like now) if I don't go out at dusk/after dark, I can't go out at all. Are you suggesting I should stay in 🙄

The 1800s called and they want their view point back.

I dont think old blossomtoes is much of a feminist!

Old Blossomtoes was a feminist probably before you were born. There’s no cookie cutter stereotype.

Wtf have I just read? And you claim to be on the left?
So you think in the winter women shouldn't be out unaccompanied even for work?
This attitude is absolutely disgusting anti equality and victim blaming. Wow. I knew by your previous posts you held some old fashioned views but this tosh is really taking the piss now.
Women don't run in the dark! Maybe you should know your place beneath men. Ffs.

What a post. Didn’t expect that either

You are definitely not a feminist in any way blossom as is made very very clear by your views on women.

Even for lib fems believing in the equality of women and their right to be out at any hour is fundamental.

On the other side, Michael Gove has been marking out the social consensus in the UK as culturally (slightly) conservative but economically (slightly) left of centre.

The question for both the main parties in this country is whether they actually can rein in the excesses of their candidates and activists (particularly the latter, in labour’s case) and actually convince anyone that this is the ground from which they will lead.

I think I probably agree with both Starmer and Gove that this particular ground is where the election will be won - it probably does represent the broad societal consensus in this country. But I’m not in any at convinced that either labour or the conservatives are actually going to occupy that ground.

Incidentally, it’s not really the ground my own political views sit in (even if I agree with the population level assessment). I don’t think I am socially conservative in my positions. But… I am as thoroughly put off by the weird extremes that seem to have displaced any sensible social policy ideas coming from anywhere left of centre, as I am by, for example, braverman’s extreme rhetoric on immigration.

I actually think the women running in the dark discussion is illustrative of the issue.

Personally, I absolutely do think that women should be able to run anywhere at any time wearing anything the like and not be attacked by men. That feels abundantly obvious to me.

But, I think that the population level view in the UK on this probably does fall in the ‘well of course women shouldn’t be attacked, but they need to take some responsibility for keeping themselves safe and adapt their activities to manage the risk of being attacked’.

As I said, I don’t like that position at all. But it’s probably where the British electorate as a whole is on this stuff.

Quote from the Guardian piece (and probably available elsewhere):

Starmer says – without any hesitantion – that he agreed with Sunak when the prime minister said in his conference speech last week: “A man is a man and a woman is a woman.”Asked if he shared that opinion, Starmer responded: “Yes, of course. You know, a woman is a female adult.”

Call me a cynic but we've got to the point where even statements like this can be interpreted to mean whatever you want them to mean. For a start, take another layer off the onion and get him to define female. For the TRAs female would include transwomen.

I've got to a point where I'll only be happy if the politicians and others start saying a woman is someone with XX chromosomes and a man someone with XY.

Not that this makes voting decisions any easier. I too would like greater investment in public services, a better NHS, fewer (or no) people in poverty. But equally I don't want to be at the mercy of anyone with XY chromosomes who believes they have an absolute right to the spaces reserved for those with XX.

Wow, what fun you’ve all been having! Of course women have every right to be out at any time we choose. Running in an isolated spot in the dark is a calculated risk, though - and common sense tells anyone who has any that’s it’s a high risk activity. My point of view completely echoes @IncomingTraffic’s.

Don't know about that, I was born in the 60s so I recognise old fashioned woman-blaming when I see it. The point of feminism is that feminists fight for all women, regardless of their views & the atereortpes of feminists tend to be pretty narrow. But feminists do tend to centre women as a guiding principle.

This sums him up.

OK...tell me, which party do you think is there for the working class if not Labour?

There are many, many different strands of feminism which take diverse viewpoints. I find the argument that you can’t be a feminist if you hold certain beliefs or, more commonly, you’re “the wrong kind of feminist” tedious and prescriptive. It’s almost as oppressive as the patriarchy.

And very very little on that list benefits working people with no kids

I'm a working person with no kids, I don't even like them, but even I can appreciate that it is better to not have kids grow up in poverty and to have some hope for a more,prosperous future. If only to reduce the benefits bill that we all have to,contribute to.

I do get pissed off with the hard working family rhetoric that all parties have and wish that they would all maybe just recognise that people without partners and/or children do exist in this society and pay their way too - in fact we pay a lot.

However, at this moment in time I'm an NHS consultant oncologist who had to tell three of my patients yesterday that their cancer was now terminal. All of them would have survived if their cancers had been detected at an earlier stage but the Tories have run the NHS down to such a state that there are many, many patients who have not been able to be treated in a timely manner. And no, I haven't been striking.

I could go on, but those three patients are now facing having to tell their families and friends that they only have a few more months left to live.

On Monday I will be telling more patients the same thing. Whilst it is part of my job ans always existed, there are more patients now who are seeing their lives shortened due to what this govt has done to this country.

If they get back in because of ignorance, bigotry and bullshit, then I'm afraid this country will have the health service they deserve. Ie the rich will be able to pay, the poor will die. And many more doctors will emigrate to countries where we get treated with respect.