Lucy Letby guilty - part 2

[twoandcooplease]

Thread 1 Lucy Letby guilty www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4875009-lucy-letby-guilty

Just in case anyone wants to keep the conversation going

@nolamesallowed

Who said I was distressed? What you’re up to is entirely transparent and frankly a bit boring.

You need to go look up definitions, @nolamesallowed, because forensic evidence is just one kind of circumstantial evidence.

That sort of thing is not shown in court so that jurors can go in for some amateur psychology, but to illustrate things like how and where they found the notes that were kept there.

So let’s get this straight. You’re saying because nobody actually saw her do it or caught her in the act nothing’s proved @nolamesallowed?

@BIossomtoes

The fact she wasn't seen to do so and that it cannot be proven forensically is enough for me- you are correct.

@nolamesallowed
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

Good game. Tone is a bit off though. 10 out of 10 for effort.

I look forward to seeing this thread on that Reddit board about Mumsnet.

She was the only one on shift for all the deaths including those not included in the charges. By a long way - for something like 25 separate incidents and the next highest number was just 6.
The shift patterns and separate incidents were analysed 'blind' so no bias leading back to the person they had already become suspicious of.
When she went on holiday the incidents stopped, as soon as she came back - multiple incidents.
Taken off permanently - zero unexpected incidents.
Babies don't just collapse out of nowhere - several were due to go home.
The insulin cannot have been accidental. And she knew no other baby was receiving the same drip so even after it was changed over, the same baby would receive another contaminated bag.
Deaths would happen on significant dates - milestones, Father's Day etc.
Sibling groups targeted.
At no point did she ask to take a step back or even question why these things were happening to her and only her.
She kept pushing to be in the higher needs room after multiple disastrous incidents.
If an alarm went, colleagues would ask each other "Is Lucy on?"
When the consultants approached management with their concerns, they had no idea about the insulin poisoning. That was uncovered much later and again points back to her.
Obviously the notes she wrote ("I did this on purpose" etc), the papers she kept and the Facebook searches at times when a parent might post an emotional tribute (Christmas, anniversary of death) - I don't think these are strong evidence on their own but they fit the rest of the picture.

Many cases are convicted on 'circumstantial' evidence, this does not = a miscarriage of justice or a weak case.

If you required a murder to be witnessed every time to allow a conviction. there would be a hell of a lot of dangerous people walking free. I don't get why your so hung up on forensic evidence. The available evidence points strongly to LL being the only person in that unit who had the means and the opportunity.

@Mustardseed86 but that is still circumstantial.

Are you a Reddit user then?

I'm sure you'll know more about them then I do. Are there any good threads I can follow in that case? I'd be happy to make an account,

Show me forensic evidence. Oh, you can't. lol.

Here is a useful page with lots of examples of what constitutes circumstantial evidence. It is ALL evidence that requires an explanation. This includes fingerprints, DNA, clothing samples, etc.

Every single piece of evidence that falls under the heading "forensic evidence" is ALSO circumstantial.

25 Circumstantial Evidence Examples (2023) (helpfulprofessor.com)

Eyewitness and video evidence are basically the only things that are not circumstantial evidence.

What would you consider forensic proof?

@mollyminniemo
hammie46i you may not see how all these things link up. However the photos of her bedroom and belongings were all shown as evidence in court as some people can read a little deeper into things than maybe you can.'

What a depressingly thick opinion.
The photos were shown as a factual record of where evidence was discovered. LL kept medical records which she'd taken from the hospital under her bed.

Of course predictably the tabloids published those photos with crap about fairy lights and teddies to try to claim LL was some obvious weirdo and to insinuate that the signs were there all along that she was a wrong 'un.

If you're intelligent enough to not read the Daily Mail, you'd realise that having fairy lights in your bedroom or Live, Love, Laugh posters doesn't prove anything. (Other than perhaps poor taste!)

Do you know what forensic evidence even is?

it’s basically identification evidence. If there had been some all it would have been likely to prove she was there. Not what she did.

do you also realise forensic evidence is a comparatively decent development? And that people have been and can still be safely convicted without it?

Oh Ffs mumsnet and it's ridiculous obsession with class🙄

Multiple unexplained deaths and insulin poisoning is not circumstantial. If you mean "she was the only one there for all the incidents we have forensic evidence for", then yes. It's why she's the only one who physically could have done it.

There are others who have attested that it is permitted in the trusts where they work. It doesn't look like there is anything much to be read into this.

Even if there were video footage of LL doing it, @nolamesallowed still wouldn't believe it.

@BIossomtoes

DNA. Fingerprints etc. what would you class as forensic evidence?

All evidence is circumstantial.

If you found my finger prints on a glass that had been smashed on someone's head in a flat it doesn't prove I committed the murder. It proves I was in the flat at some point in the previous 7 days.

It's up to the persecution to prove beyond reasonable doubt that my fingerprints were there because I used the glass to smash the person over the head.

It's circumstantial. Circumstance.

In this case the circumstances were that she was present at each and every death and attempted death.

But the jury only found that it was proved beyond reasonable doubt she was responsible for 7 deaths and 6 attempted deaths.

Prove otherwise:

@itsgettingweird prove it, I'll believe you then with gratitude.