Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Lucy Letby guilty - part 2

1000 replies

twoandcooplease · 19/08/2023 01:47

Thread 1 Lucy Letby guilty www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4875009-lucy-letby-guilty

Just in case anyone wants to keep the conversation going

OP posts:
Thread gallery
18
Foldingchair · 20/08/2023 19:09

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 19:06

@magicalkitty I see your point and understand it but there just isn't forensic evidence. It just doesn't exist. I can't convict a person on circumstantial. I truly hope they have caught the right person.

But no one is asking you to convict her. The jury, who presumably saw more evidence than us, already have. Based on their decision that she was guilty beyond all reasonable doubt.

magicalkitty · 20/08/2023 19:10

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 19:06

@magicalkitty I see your point and understand it but there just isn't forensic evidence. It just doesn't exist. I can't convict a person on circumstantial. I truly hope they have caught the right person.

But in reality, what forensic evidence could there be in this situation? If killers are good at their 'job' they will leave little or no evidence. Plus she used her medical knowledge to commit these murders - she knew how to do it and get away with it. And she probably would have got away with it if she didn't commit so many in a short amount of time, they would have been written off as natural deaths.

GrouchyKiwi · 20/08/2023 19:10

TV dramas really have confused people about how murderers are convicted.

Circumstantial evidence isn't a dirty thing. Circumstantial evidence includes fingerprints, DNA, blood analysis. Most court cases rely on circumstantial evidence.

reesewithoutaspoon · 20/08/2023 19:10

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 19:04

@Makemineacosmo

Show me where-apart from asking for forensic evidence. Show me exactly where I have defended anything but scientific evidence and asked for anyone else to convince me otherwise.

What evidence do you want. the nature of the crimes was that they were done without being witnessed. If she had been seen doing this it would have stopped at that point and investigations would have happened. There is never going to be that kind of evidence you want, all there will be is circumstantial evidence and all that circumstantial evidence points to LL.
Normal death rate before she started working there, massive spike while she was there, back to normal when she was off the unit. Every single case of unexpected collapse or death occurred when she was on the unit. 25 occasions, the next nurse down was 7 occasions, its hard to believe that was just unfortunate coincidence.
The text messages where she is reliving the experience, the hundreds of facebook searches of grieving parents, keeping the handover notes
All of it points towards LL, none of it points away from her.

Anotherchristianmama · 20/08/2023 19:10

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 19:08

Have you seen her family or PR anything? Please link me to where. Maybe it will help me have closure.

Why do you need closure? This isn't about you.

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 19:10

Boudicasbeard · 20/08/2023 19:09

@nolamesallowed

Have you read all the evidence? All the court transcripts are available online. Perhaps start there.

And maybe do some reading into criminal proceedings and how what you call ‘circumstantial evidence’ is widely accepted and used.

You are so right. Circumstantial evidence is often enough to prosecute- but it isn't for me. I am allowed that option and feeling. That isn't something you or anyone can take from me just as I cannot take your belief from you.

Moonlightdust · 20/08/2023 19:11

DrRuthGalloway · 19/08/2023 21:59

I am a psychologist and generally good at perceiving reasons driving behaviours. I am not a criminologist and have not been involved in the Letby case, but I can see a possible "motive" having read about the case and watched Panorama. It is just a theory.

I don't think "killing the babies" was the ultimate purpose of the behaviour.

Lucy had a very close relationship with her parents, had a difficult delivery and was obviously fed the idea that the heroic nurses and doctors saved her life. She wanted to be a nurse from childhood.

I think she wanted to be a hero. She wanted to be remembered by parents as the exceptionally heroic nurse who raised the alarm about their baby's condition, went out of her way to sit with them, comfort them, write them cards, make memory boxes. She reflected how tragic the situations were with colleagues in her texts, again seeking affirmation of how selfless, marvellous and heroic she was, carrying on regardless despite being in such sad situations. The way she seems to have especially targeted multiple births, IVF cases reinforce this. She can get affirmation about how terribly sad the situations were. I think she really didn't see the babies as people, just as disposable pawns in her quest for heroism and adulation. It's incredibly twisted thinking.

So I guess a kind of FII, but not about medical attention directly, but about wanting to be thought marvellous, selfless, coping beyond the call of duty...just like the nurses she has always been told saved her life at birth. Maybe?

Yes think there’s a lot of truth in this. Also, if her mother has a very traumatic birth with her perhaps she couldn’t have any more children and added to LL’s sense of superiority? She may have been overly spoilt as a result growing up or had pressure put on her to live up to high expectations. Her wall art with words ‘Shine like a diamond’ and ‘Leave sparkles in your path’ or similar words to that affect affirm your theory that she believed she was special. I think sickeningly that being at the heart of the drama and getting sympathy etc fed her ego and made her feel in control.
From a psychological point of view it does indicate covert narcissism:

“One study found that people with narcissistic personality disorder are more likely to have grown up with parents who were highly focused on status and achievements.3 Because they were often made to feel superior to other children, the belief that they are special and more valuable than others may persist into adulthood.”

What Triggers a Covert Narcissist? It is not clear, however, why narcissistic behavior is sometimes displayed in covert rather than overt ways. Some situations that might trigger a covert narcissist include:

  • Being ignored
  • Feeling disrespected
  • Threats to their ego
  • Feelings of shame
  • Being around high-status people
  • Feeling less attractive or less educated than others
  • Having less of something than others
  • Not getting the attention they think they deserve
  • Jealousy
  • Lack of control

The above would also explain LL’s frantic scribbles of ‘Not good enough’ and ‘I will never marry or have a family’ etc. True narcissism is a strange disorder where although the person has a sense of superiority, there is underlying insecurity.

itsgettingweird · 20/08/2023 19:12

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 18:56

I have watch hearts beat through the transparent skin of infants. I have held slight older infants in my hands. I have kissed, changed and bathed them. I have watched parents fall to the floor upon hearing they are deteriorating, dying or have died in a hospital very south of the countess,

I cannot see a shred of forensic evidence pointing towards the accused. I'm almost 68. I'm an older woman with experience. I'm not even retired.

I hope that if I am wrong she is dealt with by the other inmates in a way only society can do so. I almost pray I am wrong. I don't want to believe the wider NHS have let this happen.

You're very focussed on forensic evidence.

What is it you would want to be able to believe the conviction is correct?

Because they won't have found syringes or tubes etc with fingerprints or dna because a) it's very likely she would wear gloves and b) they weren't looking for these things upon death so all clinical waste would have been safely disposed of years ago.

They had evidence which they presented to the jury and in many cases they were unanimous in their verdicts, many were 10-1, some were completely split and others they agreed there wasn't enough evidence for.

If someone is the only person in a room when their own name is written on the wall and they burn the pen. Would you believe they did it or want the own as proof?

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 19:12

@Anotherchristianmama why is the verdict enough for you for closure? I'm allowed to have my own concerns and feelings. You cannot control that.

GrouchyKiwi · 20/08/2023 19:12

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 19:06

@magicalkitty I see your point and understand it but there just isn't forensic evidence. It just doesn't exist. I can't convict a person on circumstantial. I truly hope they have caught the right person.

Forensic evidence IS circumstantial evidence.

Cozytoesandtoast00 · 20/08/2023 19:13

omgsally · 20/08/2023 18:41

That categorically does not make her middle class.

She is degree educated and works in a professional career. I would say that makes her middle class.

CatkinToadflax · 20/08/2023 19:13

I spent four extremely hard months in NICU with DS1, who was born 16 weeks early. NICU was a completely different world to us and the most intense environment that we have ever been in. Those nurses - the whole clinical team - worked so so hard to save our son. We adored them for caring for him so well and saving him on multiple occasions. We trusted them implicitly. We were one of the tremendously lucky families.

Personally I am convinced that Lucy Letby is every bit as guilty as the court case has found. Even a whole life tariff won’t ever do due justice to those poor poor families. If there are any NICU nurses on this thread - thank you for what you do.

Boudicasbeard · 20/08/2023 19:14

@nolamesallowed

This is not my first social media rodeo so not falling for that. As you know so much about the case then you can come up with your own articles- because obviously you’ve read everything and are not just regurgitating stuff second hand from the weird Reddit board.

BeverleyMacker · 20/08/2023 19:14

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 19:02

Honestly please everybody - if you can give me ANYTHING than circumstantial evidence to believe she is guilty- please do so. I am in genuine pain at the thought that anyone else has done so.

I am not defending her but only saying the forensic evidence isn't there.

Obviously the jury will know alot more re evidence than we the public do. The fact that LL was present at every single death should be enough? Surely?

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 19:14

@itsgettingweird

I am very focused on forensic evidence you are right- and that may not be the same for others. As a medical professional far more qualified than LL ever was I understand why.

May I ask why you (and others) are so focused on purely circumstantial evidence? It goes both ways. I wish she truly is guilty. I wish we can put this to bed as much so as possible.

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 19:15

@BeverleyMacker it isn't enough no. Being on the ward proves absolutely nothing.

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 19:16

Boudicasbeard · 20/08/2023 19:14

@nolamesallowed

This is not my first social media rodeo so not falling for that. As you know so much about the case then you can come up with your own articles- because obviously you’ve read everything and are not just regurgitating stuff second hand from the weird Reddit board.

@Boudicasbeard if I wanted to write articles I would do so. Like you- I am only writing my opinion. I am sorry that distresses you do but I am free to do so.

GrouchyKiwi · 20/08/2023 19:16

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 19:14

@itsgettingweird

I am very focused on forensic evidence you are right- and that may not be the same for others. As a medical professional far more qualified than LL ever was I understand why.

May I ask why you (and others) are so focused on purely circumstantial evidence? It goes both ways. I wish she truly is guilty. I wish we can put this to bed as much so as possible.

Forensic evidence is a type of circumstantial (or indirect) evidence.

Direct evidence is an eyewitness account, or a video recording.

itsgettingweird · 20/08/2023 19:17

Boudicasbeard · 20/08/2023 19:07

I’m of the opinion that some people are defending her just to be contrary or have an argument.

Or they actually fell for the family’s PR spin that LL has been scapegoated. Cognitive Bias means they’ll never admit they were suckered in by her.

I find it very interesting reading the responses of those questioning the verdict.

Huge correspondence between their tone of writing to the texts sent by LL after the deaths.

Obviously I don't think they are LL on Mn! But it's all "oh I'd love to feel she's guilty but I caaaannnnnttttttt".

I'm so sorry I can't type well.

I'm so sorry I just can't agree.

They aren't sorry!!!! They know exactly what they are doing and know exactly what typing the same thing over and over is attempting to achieve.

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 19:18

@Boudicasbeard I am also so sorry you discredit Reddit so much so. Have they done something to personally offend you? As someone who doesn't use them I am unsure what the reporting process is but perhaps try it?

jenbj · 20/08/2023 19:18

@RadishesForYou

'There are no "very good" articles in The Daily Mail'

I don't generally read the Mail and in some ways I agree. However this was a well written article by a competent journalist. I prefer to read and judge.

Moonlightdust · 20/08/2023 19:18

The police carried out separate investigations for each death/near death. I read that the Teams were not allowed to consult with each other on the cases until they had reached their conclusion.
This was a highly complex case and there was a lot of research done behind the scenes.

itsgettingweird · 20/08/2023 19:18

Have you seen her family or PR anything? Please link me to where. Maybe it will help me have closure.

Why do you need closure? You do realise you weren't on trial and you weren't convicted don't you Wink

Anotherchristianmama · 20/08/2023 19:18

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 19:12

@Anotherchristianmama why is the verdict enough for you for closure? I'm allowed to have my own concerns and feelings. You cannot control that.

I don't need a sense of closure here, this is not my tragedy (and I suspect those whose tragedy it is will never have closure.) I didnt say you weren't allowed your own concerns or feelings, nor am i trying to control you. I just don't understand why someone unconnected to the case needs closure.

nolamesallowed · 20/08/2023 19:19

@GrouchyKiwi forensic evidence is undeniable. Circumstantial is not. Please show me evidence otherwise.

Please create an account

To comment on this thread you need to create a Mumsnet account.

This thread is not accepting new messages.