Butch women and public loos-not sure if correct place to post..

[Lesbianactually]

My partner is very masculine in appearance and is mistaken for a man all the time. This isn't usually a problem to her as she's aware of (and happy with) what she looks like.

However public loos (including in bars/restaurants etc) are a different story. It limits where we can go out, always has to be somewhere she feels comfortable, and these are few. Where she lives it isn't a very nice area and if I visit her she refuses to go out unless we're not drinking alcohol and/or will be very quick. First world problem I know, but I'd love for her to be able to leave the house for longer on occasion or for us to be able to share a few drinks and have some quality time. She lives with others so we don't get it at home.

She's better than she used to be. A few years ago she made herself quite poorly by holding the urge for up to 6 or 7 hours, & nowadays she won't do this, but largely through avoidance rather than management. She still panics if we go out, quite often. We live near a 'gay village' and she's fine there but last time we went with some friends, they wanted to go to a bar outside of it and she became visibly distressed as we were drinking alcohol and this means she needs the loo more often.

I've tried to help. The crux of the issue is she hates being confronted, told she's in the wrong loo. She's noticed if we're in a not so nice area, people are less tolerant/open minded and when they have confronted her they're quite nasty about it. In nicer areas she's less uncomfortable. In my local pub (we live quite far from one another) she's fine, and she has been confronted in there but she just responded that she was a woman and was there with her girlfriend and she'd show her ID if she wasn't believed. She wasn't upset by this at all but she has also in other places, had some people grab her and try to drag her out, get quite aggressive with her etc.

I know this is an anxiety-induced situation and perhaps does not need specific advice other than for her to get help for anxiety but just wondered if anyone else has experienced anything like this, anything that's good to say to people if she finds herself in this situation, any ways I can help?

She has a disabled key, from the time she made herself ill with this, but it isn't always practical to use that and it would be better for her to be happier to use the female loos generally. It's causing her unhappiness in life and limiting what she does/where she goes.

Thank you.

I believe you OP.

Regrettably, I don't think Mumsnet is the right place for support with this.

I also have a very wide circle of GNC female friends and never heard or seen anything like this.

But I'll suspend my disbelief for a moment and suggest if this is such a life limiting problem for your DP, perhaps she needs to move to a more socially progressive area where she'll feel she fits in more?

While I do find it unbelievable that your GF is perceived as a man so often you say it happens so will go with it. The violence you claim happens though is a step too far for me. There has been actual males in female toilets and women have chosen to quietly leave rather than confront.

I have been within the LGB community since 1988 and I have seen the butchest of butch women and still it was obvious they are women. Unless your GF is sporting a full beard I find it hard to believe she was viewed as male on sight.

I'm sorry you're girlfriend has those experiences op. I agree you should go to the toilet with her and make sure you speak - even the best 'passing' males can't disguise their voice.

Does she have a male voice, too?

If so, has it occurred to you that she might actually in fact be male?

Because it's mainly frequented by women, many of whom are gay or have been in same-sex relationships, and have many years of actual real-life experience of the world (as opposed to seeing people's heavily filtered profile photos)?

Decades of being a lesbian and never encountered a real woman being challenged anywhere, although I know it's a regular allegation made by trans activists.
I can see that it's disconcerting and hurtful if it happens regularly. I wish we could go back to the days where women's boundaries and single sex spaces were respected - then all women could be certain that only women would be in vulnerable single sex spaces.

I believe you OP. I think it’s no surprise she is scared as she has been assaulted. I agree with the suggestion of you accompanying her to the toilet and talking to her while you do so. I hope she can find a way to be Ok with going out. Good luck.

I've never ever seen butch women being challenged in the toilets. In fact hardly anyone challenges obvious men

In a town nearby the library has converted the loos - they have the sinks open to the corridor and the individual loos are fully enclosed floor to ceiling ditto doors - when I first used the loos I was a bit confused, but it is done with safety and sensitivity in mind and they are being constantly cleaned - (of course they also have a urinal separately!) so I found it less intimidating until I got my head round it.
Many tearooms do separate individual loos why can't more places do this (and keep the urinals separate)
It is not fair that your partner has to go through this.

I know that in my personal experience and that of other women I've spoken to (family/friends), when there has been a male in the women's toilets or changing rooms, the reaction is to get the hell out of there as quickly as you possibly can.

When it happened to me at the gym, I was properly shaken up and scared for the rest of the day (the transwoman followed me into the toilet section of the changing room and blocked me in).

There is no way that I would attempt to physically challenge someone I believed to be a man - I know I would almost certainly lose. And I believe that goes for almost all women. We know we can't defend ourselves if it comes down to it, physically, and that is, in fact, the whole point.

I’m so sorry your partner has been treated poorly and is having these issues. I don’t have any real suggestions. Would she feel it was too much away from her identify to put on say a nice scarf from her bag if going to the loo and then take it off again afterwards? Sorry if that’s not appropriate.

Women have been pushed so far with our safe spaces being intruded upon, but that’s no excuse for the three women who pushed your partner out the loos.

Could it be that she’s got deeper issues with her appearance?

This has happened in the past to friends of mine and an ex girlfriend, usually it was fine as soon as they spoke but on one occasion an ex was attacked by a couple of women in the toilets for being in the “wrong place”.

😮

Its odd that we have documented evidence of actual men being in women's toilets/changingrooms and women do not challenge them I mean even Izzard has given such a statement yet apparently we are to believe that a butch women is not only challenged but assaulted by other women on numerous occasions for being a "man" in those spaces...
I am not troll hunting but I reserve the right to say in my opinion OP you are not being honest .

Does she have a male voice, too?

If so, has it occurred to you that she might actually in fact be male?

Her voice is quite masculine sounding. Not deep but not feminine. Unless she's outright lying , she's definitely not male.

Name change fail?

Nope, different poster.

In all my 60 years I’ve only met one woman who I couldn’t sex but as soon as she spoke it was obvious she was female. It’s incredibly rare not to be able to tell what sex a person is. Using the disabled loos could be the answer or using the female loos after people leave them. Mostly she just needs to build up her confidence and have a routine answer. It’s positive females are challenging males in womens loos. Long may it continue.

Name change fail? I've not name changed? Do you mean the woman I'm talking about? We are an women only group ( WI. )Trans women are allowed but she isn't trans.

Oh wow oh wow firstly to the OP I believe you. I read a story in marks and Spencer’s how a butch lesbian lady got told she could t use the woman’s changing rooms or toilets can’t remember but if u Google it it will be there . Secondly there was a story today on twittr bbc a lady with pcos grew a big beard for charity and I have screen shots of people saying she’s a man. The point is if gender critical women were not as omg a trans woman using bathroom and saying stuff like they can tell they bloody we’ll can’t, all the time. Nobody should be stopping your partner at all unless people are doing dodgy stuff then who the hell gives a dam. By the way trans women have been using public bathrooms for years no bloody issues but the gender criticals have just gone bloody bonkers and I am a woman not trans and I don’t judge womens looks.

It’s women in mixed sex spaces that are of the greatest safeguarding risk.

No it’s not positive as it’s harming cis women like this one that has been spoken about. The fact is a bloody rapist don’t need to pretend to be trans they just gonna rape any ways

I am going to try and dig a bit deeper about what actually causes her to be like this about this one issue-being mistaken for a man isn't it, as I've said it isn't ever an issue to her normally.

Yes, a group of 3 women all dragged her out of a loo once :( I saw it once, I was sitting in view of the loos, and obviously jumped up and got her to show her ID to them but she was very shaken. They didn't even apologise just went into the loo mocking the way she looked. She's told me that sort of thing has happened more than once before, too.

Have I missed something or is your answer not there, staring you in the face?