Butch women and public loos-not sure if correct place to post..

[Lesbianactually]

My partner is very masculine in appearance and is mistaken for a man all the time. This isn't usually a problem to her as she's aware of (and happy with) what she looks like.

However public loos (including in bars/restaurants etc) are a different story. It limits where we can go out, always has to be somewhere she feels comfortable, and these are few. Where she lives it isn't a very nice area and if I visit her she refuses to go out unless we're not drinking alcohol and/or will be very quick. First world problem I know, but I'd love for her to be able to leave the house for longer on occasion or for us to be able to share a few drinks and have some quality time. She lives with others so we don't get it at home.

She's better than she used to be. A few years ago she made herself quite poorly by holding the urge for up to 6 or 7 hours, & nowadays she won't do this, but largely through avoidance rather than management. She still panics if we go out, quite often. We live near a 'gay village' and she's fine there but last time we went with some friends, they wanted to go to a bar outside of it and she became visibly distressed as we were drinking alcohol and this means she needs the loo more often.

I've tried to help. The crux of the issue is she hates being confronted, told she's in the wrong loo. She's noticed if we're in a not so nice area, people are less tolerant/open minded and when they have confronted her they're quite nasty about it. In nicer areas she's less uncomfortable. In my local pub (we live quite far from one another) she's fine, and she has been confronted in there but she just responded that she was a woman and was there with her girlfriend and she'd show her ID if she wasn't believed. She wasn't upset by this at all but she has also in other places, had some people grab her and try to drag her out, get quite aggressive with her etc.

I know this is an anxiety-induced situation and perhaps does not need specific advice other than for her to get help for anxiety but just wondered if anyone else has experienced anything like this, anything that's good to say to people if she finds herself in this situation, any ways I can help?

She has a disabled key, from the time she made herself ill with this, but it isn't always practical to use that and it would be better for her to be happier to use the female loos generally. It's causing her unhappiness in life and limiting what she does/where she goes.

Thank you.

A penis in a female changing room is something to be concerned about, you said yourself you'd be fine unless they were doing something dodgy, this is a dodgy scenario right?
That what women don't want, we don't want to have to police it, but we are aware of the statistics, we know who is most likely to be raped, we can't tell the difference between harmful and harmless men/transwomen until it's too late, so we prefer that none are present.
Given what's used to rape, genitals do come into it.

Butch Lesbians don’t tend to look like men in my limited experience.
Your partner absolutely should use the Women’s loos!
Without doubt.
Sorry she feels this awkwardness.

I’m finding it hard to believe this happens. I worked in bars/clubs with a very mixed clientele and never see women drag men out of the toilets and never seen a butch lesbian I didn’t see as female. How is this happening so often to her?

Well quite.
The girl in the Primark changing room said herself they should be inclusive, but females shouldn't be on their own there.
Not v inclusive of lone females then is it.
That story didn't even involve a transwomen, it's not a trans thing, it's a male thing, but we can't tell the difference because there isn't one
We all know anyway, and the stats back that up.

I'd never approach anyone to tell them they were in the wrong space anyway, I'd just get the hell out of there whilst drawing as little attention to myself as possible, as most women do as we know we have good reason to feel unsafe, so I'm not harming any butch lesbians (who obviously can be male according to one poster anyway)
All gets v confusing 😕

No advice but I totally resonate.
i too am in a relationship with a “butch” tall female and she too dreads going into toilets. And even if people don’t say anything to her their faces say it all!
she has also been asked to show her breasts to prove her sex by drunken women in toilets!
overall she is a confident and confrontational woman but this behaviour really puts her into herself and causes upset 😭

In spite of what some here think, this happens.

www.itv.com/news/london/2015-01-14/lesbian-couple-ordered-out-cinema-toilets-after-being-mistaken-for-men

All the gender criticals I know are more than happy to let people be and do what they want as long as they don't impinge on the rights of others. Same as every other aspect of civilised society. You can't take someone else's car or live in their house for example. It's not yours. You want to pretend you are a woman by putting balloons down your top before turning up to teach woodwork in Canada. Crack on. It's extremely insulting to women, such a mocking caricature , but we are used to being insulted by men so if you want to look like an idiot , have at it.

If you want to come into women's areas then you need to be a woman. It's really not hard. What do these men find so exciting about women's areas and places that they must be there. We all know the answer. Somebody pls tell Nicola Sturgeon and all the other women with their heads so far down in the dirt , trying to be "inclusive" they can't see dicks when they are in their own actual face, that they are a danger and a shame to their own sex.

I mean let's look at mumsnet. It must have a collective age of 200 years old. Women on here have used public toilets in the 50s 60s 70s 80s 90s and 00s I find it hard to believe that this is such a common occurrence that there isn't at least 3 threads a week on it it.

GC women have not caused this. Men forcing their way in to womens spaces has.

@CrossStichQueen It has always been an issue for some women.

OP, I feel for you and your gf. I've been watching the GC discussion with interest and honestly thought it was only a matter of time before this sort of thing happened so I can well believe this is real. I'm non conforming and I dread this happening to me.

The suggestions your gf needs therapy, should get staff to announce her presence or should speak so people recognise she's a woman are not helpful and aren't going to stop people being aggressive. Your gf shouldn't have to justify her existence to anyone. Sadly, this is a natural consequence of GC viewpoints getting so much mainstream attention. As another poster has said, transwomen have been using women's bathrooms for decades with no issues. The real threat here is men, who won't pretend to be a woman in order to cause harm. Transwomen are not the issue here and by making them the focus of the discussion, it's cis women like your gf who will suffer.

I wish I had some magical advice, but I don't know the answer for your gf. Just know she's not alone and I hope things settle down so she (and others) can go about their lives in peace.

@WonderingWhatNow I know, only some kind of lesbians matter. Not women who look very masculine and get hassle using women toilets.

ante ahh yes women hate lesbians...I mean it is women after all that constantly tell lesbians they just need to meet the right man.....need to accept girl dick....are just confused men haters....yep women are the least accepting one's in society.

Well said

You do know there can be two competing issues at work?
Lesbians pressured to accept !girl dick"
And butch women getting challenged in women's toilets.
Both are an issue for lesbians.

And yet there are links with cases like this that have happened in papers etc but of course it can’t be true can it because you guys can’t think that your views are harming cis women

It was an issue for butch lesbians long before there were many trans people.

And no woman is cis.

Butch women's experiences get used by both sides to support their arguments. The reality is more complex than any of you are accepting.

ante butch women being challenged is terrible but you need to ask yourself why this is happening more often.

Lesbians because they are women have always used womens toilets obviously so if they are being questioned why now? The answer is because men are being told if you say you are a woman then you have free access unchallenged. So women who are not stupid and know the risks men pose are rightly trying to safeguard and set boundaries. Sadly some butch women may get asked their sex because of this but that is not the fault of women.

You cannot put foxes in the hen house then wonder why the hens are scared of anything with a bushy tail.

Please don't use Cis, its offensive.

The reality is more complex than any of you are accepting.

How so?

@CrossStichQueen Lesbians being asked to accept "girl dick" and being pushed towards surgery is wrong.
But the calls to challenge any man in women's toilets do not come with an acknowledgement that there are butch women some of whom look very masculine. There needs to be a public conversation about how to deal with this. Instead, I just see women asserting that no butch women's minds being questioned as they will understand why. That is simply not true.

Exactly this, women don't want men in their private spaces, it's not just about safety either, privacy, dignity and fairness also feature.
I'm sorry for any GNC woman getting caught up in this, but women aren't to blame for wanting our own spaces.