Butch women and public loos-not sure if correct place to post..

[Lesbianactually]

My partner is very masculine in appearance and is mistaken for a man all the time. This isn't usually a problem to her as she's aware of (and happy with) what she looks like.

However public loos (including in bars/restaurants etc) are a different story. It limits where we can go out, always has to be somewhere she feels comfortable, and these are few. Where she lives it isn't a very nice area and if I visit her she refuses to go out unless we're not drinking alcohol and/or will be very quick. First world problem I know, but I'd love for her to be able to leave the house for longer on occasion or for us to be able to share a few drinks and have some quality time. She lives with others so we don't get it at home.

She's better than she used to be. A few years ago she made herself quite poorly by holding the urge for up to 6 or 7 hours, & nowadays she won't do this, but largely through avoidance rather than management. She still panics if we go out, quite often. We live near a 'gay village' and she's fine there but last time we went with some friends, they wanted to go to a bar outside of it and she became visibly distressed as we were drinking alcohol and this means she needs the loo more often.

I've tried to help. The crux of the issue is she hates being confronted, told she's in the wrong loo. She's noticed if we're in a not so nice area, people are less tolerant/open minded and when they have confronted her they're quite nasty about it. In nicer areas she's less uncomfortable. In my local pub (we live quite far from one another) she's fine, and she has been confronted in there but she just responded that she was a woman and was there with her girlfriend and she'd show her ID if she wasn't believed. She wasn't upset by this at all but she has also in other places, had some people grab her and try to drag her out, get quite aggressive with her etc.

I know this is an anxiety-induced situation and perhaps does not need specific advice other than for her to get help for anxiety but just wondered if anyone else has experienced anything like this, anything that's good to say to people if she finds herself in this situation, any ways I can help?

She has a disabled key, from the time she made herself ill with this, but it isn't always practical to use that and it would be better for her to be happier to use the female loos generally. It's causing her unhappiness in life and limiting what she does/where she goes.

Thank you.

Because of a sport I have played for over 30 years, I have socialised with many GNC women. At first glance one might wonder about their sex, but as soon as they speak or move it’s always obvious they’re female

This is my experience as well. Its very easy to tell the difference in real life as soon as the speaks. Your partner is very very unlucky or something else.

Okay, it took me a lot to post this really, because I've just spend the weekend with her and we talked about it a lot, I name changed because I didn't want to be recognised by others who know us, although not many are aware of this issue as she's quite embarrassed about it. I can assure you I would absolutely hate to be in the Daily Fail and really hope this post doesn't get any further responses because it tends to be busy threads that attract that I think.
I am not dating a transwoman. I never would, I am gay and I am attracted to women. I don't know how I can prove it, even if
I posted a photo of us that wouldn't (and obviously I never would) but some of these responses accusing me of lying when I am genuinely just wanting some advice..
I've
been in gay circles for years, and I've met many a female who's had this problem, including a lot of my friends. The difference is most of them aren't as anxious about it as my partner is. If you haven't experienced it, good for you and I am glad because, well It's not very nice. I will leave the thread now though, because I am becoming quite upset.

You may think you're 'revealing' an insincere poster but you're actually upsetting someone with a very genuine and quite common issue.

Thank you to all the kind people who've responded and given me food for thought, it wasn't in vain, I promise and it is appreciated a lot.

You may think you're 'revealing' an insincere poster but you're actually upsetting someone with a very genuine and quite common issue.

It's not a common issue though is it? You've made the mistake in assuming MN is just middle aged straight women. It's not. There's a bucket load of lesbians of all ages here too.

At first glance one might wonder about their sex, but as soon as they speak or move it’s always obvious they’re female.

Yeah, both the butch women I've been in relationships with said this was their experience of navigating the world, particularly toilets. One used to often clear her throat in the toilet to try to get her female voice heard! But this is going back some years now, and while I'm resolutely opposed to making women's spaces 'inclusive' i can believe that increased interest in this issue may be sadly causing issues like these for some women.

I don't really know the answer.

It is entirely possible for a woman to be mistaken for a man. I was absolutely convinced a woman at a special interest club I go to was male. She Looks it, sounds it, dresses like an older man. I was so surprised when she referred to her husband and one of the other members of the group told me she was a woman. I have never seen a woman look more like a man ever.

Why would you think I thought that? I did not assume that at all. I was actually hoping some of the women you mentioned would see the thread, as they may have experienced similar and/or have some advice formed from experience. I was going to post on reddit but the lesbian community on there (seems at least) to be formed of much younger women.

Thank you @Kendodd :)

Most public bathrooms seem to becoming unisex or gender neutral these days. I don’t think this will be an issue for much longer.

Talking as she goes in to the toilets is the way forward. If you’re with her, that will be easy. She needs to just do some loudish chat with you (ie not whispers) and then it should be obvious she’s female. If she’s by herself, she can either talk into her phone or - better, I think - pretend to call out over her shoulder as she enters the loos or call to a pretend friend in the toilets eg asking if they’re there.

I think you’re saying the problem is her anxiety about it? Perhaps having tactics like above will help. The more she’s not challenged, the more relaxing it will be hopefully.

I'm sorry you're being attacked for sharing your experience @Lesbianactually

I assume its because its uncomfortable for trans haters to hear because it blurs some lines.

Anxiety can be very disabling and become self feeding, I don't know what to suggest other than therapy which sometimes can be life changing

Thing is... a transwoman started using the female changing rooms at my gym. They stayed in there for hours, unnecessarily, forcing me to be alone in there with them on a couple of occasions.

This person had long feminine hair and was wearing women's clothes and was not significantly taller than me (I'm 5 ft 8).

And yet, I clocked them as male INSTANTLY. more than instantly. Before I was even consciously aware of having seen them.

My (female) friend saw them on a different occasion and similarly knew instantly.

On the flip side, when I was in a same-sex relationship, I knew many butch women who had short hair, didn't shave their body hair, wore masculine clothes etc. And I NEVER thought any of them were men, not even for a moment

Recognising sex is very deeply hard wired. Interestingly, women are much better than men at knowing what sex someone is, and people with ASD are significantly less able to do so.

So... I find several aspects of this to run counter to both my own first hand experience and to scientific research.

I’d imagine this isn’t as big an issue as she thinks it is. I have tons of butch friends and it hasn’t ever happened to them, they have had looks for sure, but nothing actually said.
This does read like an argument for TRA’s to beat women with, I’m not saying you are doing that op, but this is certainly not a common thing. Women are very good at correctly sexing each other, we have to be!

Can you go with her to the toilets whenever she needs to go? I imagine having someone with her could go some way to easing her anxiety.

Most of the Redd1t 'lesbian' subs are populated almost entirely by biological males. Including the ones whose names are very, very, very similar to your username.

They made sure of that a few years ago by banning any female-only subs as 'hate groups'.

'Lesbian' redd1t is a complete sausage-fest.

Butch women aren't that uncommon. I often do a double take - thinking someone is a man but realising they are a woman when I glance back at them. Most women would not handle someone physically like that, so I am sorry your girlfriend has had that experience.

However it's not possible to control the reactions of others. And irs sad that someone would limit their life experiences to avoid something like that. Your gf needs to decide how to approach it herself. If she cant decide to either calmly explain she is a woman or signal it in some way, maybe some therapy would help her?

Indeed. Hundreds of thousands of years of evolution has ensured that females are incredibly good at sexing others.

You could get yourself a RADAR key which fits most accessible toilets. People will not normally question her using it. I have one as I have a hidden disability. I have never been challenged. If I was I would be tempted to offer to describe explicitly the surgery which I've had!!

Even 'trans men' who are trying their best to be read as male generally look like butch lesbians in person, even with facial hair etc. I've never met a gay woman who genuinely would be mistaken for a man after the very first glance.

I don't know why you're getting such a hard time here OP, I can absolutely believe this has happened. I was queuing to get admitted to the Gynae ward for surgery last week and someone told the poor woman in front of me that the male admissions ward was down the corridor! She was quite tall and masculine looking but really, as if you'd say that!

I've never met a gay woman who genuinely would be mistaken for a man after the very first glance

As I said upthread I mistook a women (who isn’t lesbian) for a man. If you placed her in a line of ten women I would defy anyone to not think she was male. I’d been in the group nearly two years before I was told she was not. And if I’d not been told, I’d still believe to this day she was a he.