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Original poster

Butch women and public loos-not sure if correct place to post..

262 replies

Lesbianactually · 09/10/2022 18:57

My partner is very masculine in appearance and is mistaken for a man all the time. This isn't usually a problem to her as she's aware of (and happy with) what she looks like.

However public loos (including in bars/restaurants etc) are a different story. It limits where we can go out, always has to be somewhere she feels comfortable, and these are few. Where she lives it isn't a very nice area and if I visit her she refuses to go out unless we're not drinking alcohol and/or will be very quick. First world problem I know, but I'd love for her to be able to leave the house for longer on occasion or for us to be able to share a few drinks and have some quality time. She lives with others so we don't get it at home.

She's better than she used to be. A few years ago she made herself quite poorly by holding the urge for up to 6 or 7 hours, & nowadays she won't do this, but largely through avoidance rather than management. She still panics if we go out, quite often. We live near a 'gay village' and she's fine there but last time we went with some friends, they wanted to go to a bar outside of it and she became visibly distressed as we were drinking alcohol and this means she needs the loo more often.

I've tried to help. The crux of the issue is she hates being confronted, told she's in the wrong loo. She's noticed if we're in a not so nice area, people are less tolerant/open minded and when they have confronted her they're quite nasty about it. In nicer areas she's less uncomfortable. In my local pub (we live quite far from one another) she's fine, and she has been confronted in there but she just responded that she was a woman and was there with her girlfriend and she'd show her ID if she wasn't believed. She wasn't upset by this at all but she has also in other places, had some people grab her and try to drag her out, get quite aggressive with her etc.

I know this is an anxiety-induced situation and perhaps does not need specific advice other than for her to get help for anxiety but just wondered if anyone else has experienced anything like this, anything that's good to say to people if she finds herself in this situation, any ways I can help?

She has a disabled key, from the time she made herself ill with this, but it isn't always practical to use that and it would be better for her to be happier to use the female loos generally. It's causing her unhappiness in life and limiting what she does/where she goes.

Thank you.

OP posts:
Iamclearlyamug · 09/10/2022 18:59

If she is confronted, does she not say that she is in fact a woman and is therefore in the right place? If she needs to go, can you go with her for moral support?

ButterflyBitch · 09/10/2022 19:04

I’m sorry your girlfriend feels this way. If she’s misread as male then a quick ‘I’m a woman’ should sort it as womens voices are recognisable. I appreciate she shouldn’t have to do this but may help when someone isn’t sure. As for being grabbed? Do women really do this? I would t grab a man I thought was in the wrong place, I’d just get outta there. Can’t imagine many women grabbing someone they thought was a man. She definitely shouldn’t limit where she goes though. Most women can accurately sex someone within a few seconds so she shouldn’t be worrying this much.

Original poster
Lesbianactually · 09/10/2022 19:08

Iamclearlyamug · 09/10/2022 18:59

If she is confronted, does she not say that she is in fact a woman and is therefore in the right place? If she needs to go, can you go with her for moral support?

She does.

I do go with her, but she's still panicky. I asked her this before, if it helps if I go with her and she says it does a little, but doesn't stop the panic. It builds up from the moment she's somewhere she isn't comfortable, like the dread of needing the loo is all she can focus on, then she panics more if/when she does.
It's a strange thing because she's not generally afraid of confrontation at all.

She's far more capable of dealing with many situations where I might be afraid (eg there was a horrible altercation between two men at a party we were at some time ago and she went and diffused it, and she confronted a nasty arrogant queue-jumper some time ago too-I'd have not dare do that nor would many I think).

It's just this. I am going to try and dig a bit deeper about what actually causes her to be like this about this one issue-being mistaken for a man isn't it, as I've said it isn't ever an issue to her normally.

OP posts:
Goodoldvera · 09/10/2022 19:08

The antithesis of the trans woman hoohaa, she's a person that shouldn't be traumatised when needing to take a leak

Original poster
Lesbianactually · 09/10/2022 19:12

ButterflyBitch · 09/10/2022 19:04

I’m sorry your girlfriend feels this way. If she’s misread as male then a quick ‘I’m a woman’ should sort it as womens voices are recognisable. I appreciate she shouldn’t have to do this but may help when someone isn’t sure. As for being grabbed? Do women really do this? I would t grab a man I thought was in the wrong place, I’d just get outta there. Can’t imagine many women grabbing someone they thought was a man. She definitely shouldn’t limit where she goes though. Most women can accurately sex someone within a few seconds so she shouldn’t be worrying this much.

Thank you. Yes, It's something I am struggling to understand as she's not normally meek in character at all. I am going to try to talk to her and help her figure out what exactly it is about this one thing.

I think, It's the accusation not of being a man per se, but of being a man who would lurk about in women's loos. She says where I live people who have said things, say it nicely but some people in certain places are very angry with her, and she's not done anything wrong.

Yes, a group of 3 women all dragged her out of a loo once :( I saw it once, I was sitting in view of the loos, and obviously jumped up and got her to show her ID to them but she was very shaken. They didn't even apologise just went into the loo mocking the way she looked. She's told me that sort of thing has happened more than once before, too.

OP posts:
Original poster
Lesbianactually · 09/10/2022 19:13

Goodoldvera · 09/10/2022 19:08

The antithesis of the trans woman hoohaa, she's a person that shouldn't be traumatised when needing to take a leak

It really is :( I mean, I am dead against the 'gender neutral loo' thing but she's all for it, and this is why.

OP posts:
gogohmm · 09/10/2022 19:15

Not sure where you live but out in Bristol last week, all three pubs had gender neutral toilets. Many on here will be aghast but it's great if it avoids issues like yours op. (2/3 pubs had segregated as well as btw, one was just gender neutral and it was the men whinging because they had to queue Grin)

Diverseopinions · 09/10/2022 19:16

If it were a pub or eaterie with the manager/owner in evidence, I'd be inclined to explain the situation to them. It would be their wish to make all their customers feel comfortable. They might go in when she does, if a general cloakroom with cubicles and say lightly: " Jenny's just using in here. She's here with her mates."

I know this might sound cheesy and artificial, but it seems that you and your partner have discovered a problem to do with things in these modern times in which we live. If your partner could be brave enough to be open in this way I suggest, or another probably better way, then she would be flagging up the issues and problems which affect others, and helping them also, and giving venue hosts and landlords some tools. Landlords often become skilled in mediating social issues, but they need to understand, first of all, how people feel about it.

I guess it's easy in a smaller venue. If you can look around a pub and count the drinkers, the landlord could loudly welcome you by your names, when you come in, and say, " How are girls tonight?".

I hope things improve and that your partner doesn't stay anxious.

Thehawki · 09/10/2022 19:17

Is she quite tall? I feel so bad for her. Those women should have been kicked out for grabbing her! Doesn’t matter if she even was a man, a simple ‘wrong toilet, oops!’ would suffice for most people and grabbing people/assaulting them is never okay.

Original poster
Lesbianactually · 09/10/2022 19:45

@gogohmm Bristol may be our next citybreak! And typical, the men whinging Wink . I am fine with gender neutral loos as long as there's still a female only space avaiable.
@Diverseopinions thank you. I'll have a think about that sort of thing. I hadn't thought of that. Much easier to orchestrate in a small pub than a large restaurant, I agree. I am not sure she'd want to say something to them but she might not mind if I did.

@Thehawki she's 5'9, not an exceptional height for a woman but tall enough to support someone's theory that she's male, I guess. May be less of an issue were she smaller.

Thank you for your support, and all of you. I just feel I should try to help and wasn't sure where to start!

OP posts:
Original poster
Lesbianactually · 09/10/2022 19:51

Another thing she's said about it is that she just thinks 'why on earth would I be in here if I wasn't a woman'. She's aware that females generally feel unsafe and annoyed if they find a man in a female-only space. But to her, obviously having been female her whole life she can't fathom somehow, that people would think she'd knowingly enter the wrong loo.

I had an ex who had this issue, and had actually been removed from a female loo by a doorman once. But she was a lot more feisty? Than my partner is and just lifted her shirt to reveal some rather large breasts (in a bra obviously)! He was very apologetic.

OP posts:
caramac04 · 09/10/2022 19:51

I’ve no advice but want to say how sad that makes me feel to know that your girlfriend is being judged for her appearance in such a confrontational and aggressive manner.
I have a friend who is a bit blokey looking, she is the kindest most gentle person you could meet, a great mum and friend. I’d feel sick if this happened to her.

titchy · 09/10/2022 19:54

Welcome to MN OP.

Original poster
Lesbianactually · 09/10/2022 19:54

caramac04 · 09/10/2022 19:51

I’ve no advice but want to say how sad that makes me feel to know that your girlfriend is being judged for her appearance in such a confrontational and aggressive manner.
I have a friend who is a bit blokey looking, she is the kindest most gentle person you could meet, a great mum and friend. I’d feel sick if this happened to her.

Thank you. caramac04. I understand that. I feel the same, my partner is very caring and although she will usually confront any wrongdoing, she's mild-mannered and very kind. If a man did enter the loos any female would be a lot safer with my partner in there than any other time-she'd protect anyone if she could. It makes me very sad, too :(

OP posts:
Original poster
Lesbianactually · 09/10/2022 19:55

titchy · 09/10/2022 19:54

Welcome to MN OP.

@titchy sorry forgot to clarify, I'm not new-I've just namechanged.

OP posts:
TimeAtTheBar · 09/10/2022 19:56

Yeah…no

TimeAtTheBar · 09/10/2022 19:59

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namchangeforthis · 09/10/2022 20:00

It's a shame for your partner that some males don't respect single sex spaces because if she is being questioned it is due to women being wary.

As someone else said upthread most women can tell who is male and who is female. I can't believe this happens every time you go out though! Very strange.

Original poster
Lesbianactually · 09/10/2022 20:01

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She isn't trans :( I am a gay female and wouldn't ever date a man. I've posted on threads (under a different name) about that.

She's been accused of that, too, not so long ago. I am very passive and placid natured but I was instrumental in getting us out of that situation.

OP posts:
Original poster
Lesbianactually · 09/10/2022 20:02

namchangeforthis · 09/10/2022 20:00

It's a shame for your partner that some males don't respect single sex spaces because if she is being questioned it is due to women being wary.

As someone else said upthread most women can tell who is male and who is female. I can't believe this happens every time you go out though! Very strange.

She isn't confronted every time we go out, but she is anxious every time we go out. The only exception is, if It's in a very gay friendly place where woman like her are more 'normal' and/or somewhere she's used to and feels comfortable.

OP posts:
catandcoffee · 09/10/2022 20:02

That's weird it happens to her so frequently.
I've seen a few
" butch" women out and about but I recognise them as women......walk, body language ect.

Johnnysgirl · 09/10/2022 20:04

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FatKyle · 09/10/2022 20:05

catandcoffee · 09/10/2022 20:02

That's weird it happens to her so frequently.
I've seen a few
" butch" women out and about but I recognise them as women......walk, body language ect.

Same.

Original poster
Lesbianactually · 09/10/2022 20:05

@catandcoffee I know a lot of masculine-presenting women but she is exceptionally so I'd say? She's very natural with it, including body language and has known she's gay since she was a child (preteen). I haven't (to my knowledge) ever been mistaken either.

OP posts:
Original poster
Lesbianactually · 09/10/2022 20:05

@Johnnysgirl what do you mean please?

OP posts: