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Ukraine Invasion: Part 28

1000 replies

MagicFox · 24/06/2022 11:38

Thread 28 begins, thanks all for the company and resources

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MagicFox · 15/07/2022 11:08

Unrolled thread @EHunterChristie

unrollthread.com/t/1547869128421044224/

1-10 I'm assuming we are now, in a certain sense, in or on the edge of WW3, with Russia's war of aggression against Ukraine in direct analogy to Nazi Germany's war of aggression against Poland in Sept. 1939.

2-10 In the two world wars, very powerful states chose to wage wars of aggression with the strategic objective of achieving a new global order and a new global balance of power, more favourable to them, and motivated by deep resentment at the existing status of rival powers.

3-10 Putin's complete disrespect for human life is an integral part of the war. You don't get a radically new global order without killing millions of people, and a leader not prepared to kill millions would never aim to bring about a new global order by force.

4-10 What happens next? One view is a global war in slow motion. This is what Moscow's opponents seem to hope for, as they are afraid of speed and what that might trigger. Military aid, but not too much. Sanctions, but one step at a time. Defences up, but not too fast.

5-10 One could make the case that Putin's Hitler-like revisionism became obvious with his 2005 speech on the collapse of the USSR being the 'greatest geopolitical catastrophe of the century'. The key was that the speech explicitly referenced Russians in post-Soviet states.

6-10 A common error is to blame 'NATO expansion'. Wrong. Hitler is preparing his revenge. The wise know what is coming. They seek a place under the security umbrella before Hitler comes. That is the essence of NATO enlargement, a mutually agreed widening of who gets protection.

7-10 The idea of a WW3 in slow motion can be seen from 2014 onwards. What Putin does in 2014 is a copy of Hitler's actions against Czechoslovakia in 1938. He knows it. We know it. The only people who don't know it are journalists. Point is, we want him to slow down.

8-10 We did slow Putin down in 2014, but we did not use the time wisely. It's not that democracies never prepare. We were wise during the Cold War. But over 2014-2021 we prepared very little, and we limited Ukraine's preparation. In WW3 as in WW2, weak postures invite aggression.

9-10 Powers in Eurasia writ large are mostly taking a softly supportive stance towards Moscow, whereas smaller states directly threatened are either already subdued, or fully defiant and ready to fight. That divide cuts through Europe itself and is compensated by our alliances.

10-10 Soft support: China, India, Iran, Turkey Pulled away from soft support: Germany, Italy, France Ready to fight: Poland, other NATO Eastern Flank WW3 hinges on what the offshore powers do. WW3 is ultimately against them, primarily the US, secondarily the UK.

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blueshoes · 15/07/2022 11:19

MagicFox · 15/07/2022 10:42

@MagicFox thanks for the link. There will be others more knowledgeable who will come along to give their thoughts.

If this is WW3 in slow motion, then the motion will be very slow. Ukraine is currently at risk and Russia could win but at this rate, conquering and holding Ukraine is going to take years and a big chunk of Russia's resources which it cannot quickly or readily regenerate, whether it be soldiers or equipment requiring high end parts.

If Russia hasn't even got started, well NATO hasn't either, including its new would-be members Sweden and Finland.

I may be overly optimistic. Big question looms over China's stance.

MagicFox · 15/07/2022 11:29

China are ideologically aligned to Russia and the BRICS alternative, but economically their chips are better served with the west. But then they've also been in a kind of economic warfare with the west for years already. I have simultaneous sick feeling that they will be in with Russia etc militarily but also hope that US stance might become more about cooperation. I don't know, and I don't know enough!

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Ijsbear · 15/07/2022 12:00

Heard something today that has changed my stance.

I think we need to attack Russia and liberate it from itself. It is a rotting body politic ridden with maggots and it will be a threat to the world until its culture is destroyed and a better one established.

MagicFox · 15/07/2022 12:15

I completely get the strength of feeling but I do not think we should attack Russia

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OwlsDance · 15/07/2022 12:21

Well I kept saying Putin won't invade Ukraine because he's not that stupid and countries don't do this kind of thing in 21st century so I'm clearly not the best judge!

Having said that, as much as I don't want to believe it, I think ww3 will happen at some point, but I guess we're at least another decade away. Based on nothing really...

MagicFox · 15/07/2022 12:26

I think ww3 will happen at some point, but I guess we're at least another decade away.

How can this be allowed to happen? What about the climate, our children's future? I'm so angry

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OwlsDance · 15/07/2022 12:28

Ijsbear · 15/07/2022 12:00

Heard something today that has changed my stance.

I think we need to attack Russia and liberate it from itself. It is a rotting body politic ridden with maggots and it will be a threat to the world until its culture is destroyed and a better one established.

I think we run into huge risk of completely alienating ME/Africa and other countries that are critical of western democracies. It'll be the Evil West interfering with other countries' internal politics and telling everyone how to live.

Unfortunately, as painful as it is to watch, we need to just let Russia run its course.

Ijsbear · 15/07/2022 12:36

The West chews people up with unbridled capitalism but Russia is as bad for cruelty as the old Roman Empire.

It has no place in a decent world. China, with all its repressions, is a better land by far.

ScrollingLeaves · 15/07/2022 12:43

@Ijsbear · Today 12:00
Heard something today that has changed my stance.

I think we need to attack Russia and liberate it from itself. It is a rotting body politic ridden with maggots and it will be a threat to the world until its culture is destroyed and a better one established.

I don’t think it would work out well to attack Russia, but what have you heard today that has changed your own stance? (Only if you are willing to say )

blueshoes · 15/07/2022 12:50

@Ijsbear curious what changed your stance. What else is there left for the Russian state to do that will shock you to this extent?

I fear attacking Russia is not realistic. It is just too big a land mass to be conquered. Regime change maybe but the successor is as bad as the incumbent as the rot goes deep. Navalny?

Ijsbear · 15/07/2022 12:55

I am reacting very emotionally atm. I'll try to calm down. But it shocked me deeply and I'm not inexperienced

ScrollingLeaves · 15/07/2022 12:59

@Ijsbear · Today 12:55
I am reacting very emotionally atm. I'll try to calm down. But it shocked me deeply and I'm not inexperienced

No one could blame you.

blueshoes · 15/07/2022 13:06

Ijsbear · 15/07/2022 12:55

I am reacting very emotionally atm. I'll try to calm down. But it shocked me deeply and I'm not inexperienced

@Ijsbear Flowers.

I am guessing it is a personal account (you don't have to say). I find them the hardest to process but I know it happens.

MagicFox · 15/07/2022 13:17

Thinking of you @Ijsbear, I dread to think what you know and I hope you know we're all here for you on the thread

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Hillsmakeyoustrong · 15/07/2022 14:20

@Ijsbear has genuinely put herself in the tunnel with the Ukrainian people. Such is her heart. And it's people like her who restore my faith in humanity. To share your home and provide a safe place for those who have had the most horrendous experience is both brave and compassionate.

Natsku · 15/07/2022 14:31

Ijsbear · 15/07/2022 12:55

I am reacting very emotionally atm. I'll try to calm down. But it shocked me deeply and I'm not inexperienced

Flowers There's a lot of things being done that make our emotions run very strong, we can't help that reaction, and you are close to this with your guests and all so it undoubtedly makes your emotions much stronger

Ijsbear · 15/07/2022 15:07

Thank you .. sorry. I try to keep calm because the last thing our guests need is their host falling apart. Also I just don't think it helps when generally the thread needs calmness and analysis. But this was something I couldnt handle.

Ijsbear · 15/07/2022 15:22

Rather more concrete figures than some of the guesstimes, from a hopefully reliable source.

⚡️Reznikov: Up to 100 Ukrainian soldiers were killed per day on frontlines in May.

Ukraine's Defense Minister Oleksii Reznikov told BBC Ukraine that Ukraine suffered the biggest combat losses in May, adding that between 300 to 400 soldiers were wounded at the time each day.

MissConductUS · 15/07/2022 16:31

A couple of things I found newsworthy. The US Congress has allocated money to train Ukrainian pilots on US warplanes.

twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1547911286649786368?s=09

I had heard that some of this was already underway. I guess the funding will allow it do scale up. There must be a plan to transfer fighter planes to the UAF or there would be no point in the training. This will be a massive upgrade from the Soviet era planes they're flying now.

And the Russians have started formal prosecution of the company that makes the S300 and S400 antiaircraft systems due to their inability to defend against rocket artillery. That will certainly be good for morale among the troops. I wonder if Turkey, China and all of the other countries who bought them will be getting refunds as they''re not fit for purpose.

twitter.com/JayinKyiv/status/1547670748197556225

MagicFox · 15/07/2022 16:42

Igor Sushko tweets a video: 'The first female legionnaire in the #RussianFreedomLegion directly addresses Russian soldiers. English subtitles.'

twitter.com/igorsushko/status/1547854620906569729?s=21&t=w-GSh0H5qCS5vgrpSuV4PA

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MagicFox · 15/07/2022 16:48

Really good interview with Admiral Sir Tony Radakin, Britain’s chief of the defence staff: podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-economist-asks/id1108555682?i=1000569911992

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MissConductUS · 15/07/2022 16:58

Magic, I heard that podcase yesterday, and it was excellent. I'd also like to plug the "Ukraine: The Latest" podcast. It can run a bit long, but it's a really good summary of the news and gets some good interviews.

blueshoes · 15/07/2022 17:55

"A couple of things I found newsworthy. The US Congress has allocated money to train Ukrainian pilots on US warplanes.

^twitter.com/DefenceU/status/1547911286649786368?s=09^

I had heard that some of this was already underway. I guess the funding will allow it do scale up. There must be a plan to transfer fighter planes to the UAF or there would be no point in the training. This will be a massive upgrade from the Soviet era planes they're flying now."

@MissConductUS this would be so great. Once Ukraine takes out enough of Russia's air defences, I guess that would clear the skies for Ukraine's fighter planes.

notimagain · 15/07/2022 18:11

There must be a plan to transfer fighter planes to the UAF or there would be no point in the training. This will be a massive upgrade from the Soviet era planes they're flying now."

Stories with regard to F-16 training have been doing the rounds for a while, so it all sounds as if it's a continuation of this:

www.airforcemag.com/ukraine-flies-suicide-missions-with-migs-awaits-u-s-decision-on-f-16-training/

Whether any F-16s provided are in reality a massive upgrade on what the Ukraines have been flying will depend on what gets given, if that's the plan (by which I mean mark, avionics fit, upgrades etc).

The F-16 dates back to the early 70's aircraft, so predates things like the MiG-29 by a handful of years, but has received significant upgrades over the decades.

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