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Ukraine Invasion Part 18

999 replies

Ijsbear · 02/04/2022 14:10

Place for information, discussion, points of view, useful links and above all, a hope that this sovereign land can regain its freedom.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
BringBackCoffeeCreams · 06/04/2022 09:59

If De Spaffle had an ounce of common sense or concern for the UK he could use the Russia report and the current situation to reverse brexit while saving face. Launch a full investigation into Russian meddling in the referendum, void the result as it was meddling from Russia, start the process of rejoining, label anyone who still thinks it's a good idea a Russian useful idiot.

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2022 10:11

Re: Russia not ready to become a democracy.

If you've not read Kamil Galeev's two (out of three) threads on possible outcomes from Russia, its worth reading them.

He calls them

  1. North Korea
twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1508576670587895810
  1. Imperial Reboot
twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1509968359483445256
  1. Jubilee / National Divorce

North Korea is full on Third Reich

Imperial Reboot is revert to type another dictator / exploitation of Russian regions post Putin (he points out that Navalny is a nationalist and isn't exactly fluffy and nice politically) and will want another strong man.

He does think Russia could reform but he hasn't written about that yet, so it will be intriguing what he says on that front.

Igotjelly · 06/04/2022 10:12

BBC reporting that Czech Republic are sending tanks to Ukraine, the first NATO country to do so.

MagicFox · 06/04/2022 10:18

@RedToothBrush

Re: Russia not ready to become a democracy.

If you've not read Kamil Galeev's two (out of three) threads on possible outcomes from Russia, its worth reading them.

He calls them

  1. North Korea
twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1508576670587895810
  1. Imperial Reboot
twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1509968359483445256
  1. Jubilee / National Divorce

North Korea is full on Third Reich

Imperial Reboot is revert to type another dictator / exploitation of Russian regions post Putin (he points out that Navalny is a nationalist and isn't exactly fluffy and nice politically) and will want another strong man.

He does think Russia could reform but he hasn't written about that yet, so it will be intriguing what he says on that front.

All the evidence so far suggests option one is the most likely.

Very interesting re Navalny, was disappointed to hear that. On the other hand, it kind of makes it clear why he's viable as a candidate

KonTikki · 06/04/2022 10:19

I agree. Ukrainian Intelligence is promoting this to fan the flames of discord at the top of the Kremlin.
Putin is certainly paranoid. What better way of making him suspicious of all around him, and doubt anything that he is told

The UK, (the City) certainly acted shamefully in taking Russian money, but Germany has placed themselves in an invidious position being too dependent on Russian oil/gas, and on China as their main export market for the German car industry.
This has led to a far too conciliatory approach to both countries.

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2022 10:54

Three threads on the military situation:

Rob Lee @RALee85
Russia invaded Ukraine with 75% of its permanent readiness BTGs as well as conscripts and Rosgvardia troops. They had to stretch the military thin to achieve this, which meant there was never much of a reserve if things went poorly. It isn't about trust, it's about numbers.

Russia pulled units from almost everywhere. They're even using units from Kaliningrad, which is precarious at a time of high tensions with NATO, as well as South Ossetia. The ground component of the Russian military is ~350,000 or less, including conscripts and support troops. 2/

This is also why it was so important that Russia committed almost 100% of its forces near the border by the end of the second week. There wasn't much to pull from after that, and Russia has already been rotating units from the front lines to the rear. 3/
www.politico.com/news/2022/03/07/putin-russia-combat-forces-ukraine-00014699
Putin sends ‘nearly 100 percent’ of Russian forces at border into Ukraine

The question is which side suffers more from attrition of units already committed to the fight? Have Ukrainian units been able to rotate as often from the front? Not clear if Russia can attain a 3:1 or 2:1 numerical advantage in its offensives in the JFO area. 4/

Phillips P. OBrien @PhillipsPOBrien
The Russian Army might be in worse shape than imagined (and Ive probably been about as skeptical about their condition as anyone since this started). It also looks like Putin doesnt trust forces that were not sent to Ukraine in the first place.

Why? There are signs that the Russians want to send the troops that have pulled out of Kyiv, Chernihiv and Sumy into the Donbas quickly, including those responsible for the Bucha massacre.

Pentagon sources are saying that the plan is to send about two-thirds of the forces that the Russians have pulled out of the north and redeploy to the south and east.

If so, this is an army in terrible shape and running out of options. These troops have been worn down, defeated, lost much of their equipment and would under any circumstances be close to being combat ineffective.
www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/101-5-1/f545-aca.htm

Combat ineffectiveness is not a science, but throughout history unit performance has degraded considerably when these factors rise: losses of personnel and equipment, time in combat operations, battlefield failure. All of these are now high for the Russian forces being redeployed

Those troops in any rational system would be rested, re-equipped and allowed time before being sent to another stressful combat situation. That Putin is going to try and do it with these forces reveals these 4 things which show how difficult the long-war scenario is for Russia.

1) The Russians dont trust the rest of their armed forces. If they could, they would be sending fresh troops into combat not these that have suffered such losses.
2) They are willing to basically see the best part of their army wiped out in the first phase of the war. If for some reason they can get these troops back to other parts of Ukraine and they go into combat again, hard to see what would be left of them after a few weeks.
3) They dont care about the morale of their own forces. This is particularly toxic. If the Russian soldiers believe that they are basically cannon fodder for the leadership, their willingness to fight will decline below what it already is.
4) The Russians are out of ideas. If you are sending troops that have committed some of the worst crimes back into Ukraine, they will only motivate Ukrainian resistance (which has already shown itself to be effective) to even higher levels. Its a stupid idea.

What does it mean? Russia really does not want to fight a long war and Ukraine has a real opportunity. If the Ukrainians can be resupplied and redeployed to meet the Russian redeployments, they can basically waste the only combat force the Russian government believes in.

Thats why its so important to get help to Ukraine now. Give them the opportunity to destroy the Russian forces that will be redeployed from Kyiv and they can force Putin to take a choice he is clearly terrified to make. Fight a long war with conscripts or forces he doesnt trust.

An interesting point worth expanding this thread on.:

Sergey Radchenko @DrRadchenko
I am concerned that peace negotiations - such as we had - seem to have been derailed. We have calls for a war until bloody end on both sides. Important to realise, I think, that the horrors that we have seen are but a fraction of what may yet unfold.

Peace talks must be prioritised. Neither Ukraine nor Russia are likely to win this war. But dangers of escalation remain, and so does the potential for ever greater bloodbath. Peace talks do not preclude ongoing investigation of Russia's war crimes.

Phillips P. OBrien @PhillipsPOBrien
I’ve always tried to imagine a negotiated end to this war as there will have to be one (Ukraine is not conquering Russia). Reality now though is that negotiations are meaningless until we’ve had another test of arms in the Donbas. Putin is clearly trying to use military force to save something he can call a victory from the original failure. Until that contest is decided, negotiations can’t decide anything. So keep talking, yes But most importantly help Ukraine to militarily succeed in the Donbas by degrading the one force the Russian government trusts. Then negotiate.

Then finally:
Kamil Galeev @kamilkazani
Why Russia is losing this war?

First I'll discuss why Russia is losing. Then I'll give my version of how it could happen. The key to understanding lies in the Soviet/Russian military doctrine. It gives context for current events and helps to predict further Russian actions

As usual its another LONG thread. So I won't post it all.
To summarise,

First of all he points out the Russians changed tone about the Special Operation in maps and since 2nd April they stopped talking about 'successes' and changed to describing it as 'execution'.

Then he talks about how the Russians only ever managed to control the roads, the Ukrainians planned for this and used winter guerilla tactics to great effect, but they would perhaps have more advantage in summer with green cover from trees. The losses plus the change in season gave the Russians little choice but to rethink and retreat. He also points out there is a marked difference in the retreats from Kyiv/Chernihiv and Sumy. The Sumy retreat was much more organised and less hasty.

Then he talks about how the Russia army is just the Soviet Army and what that was set up for:

  1. Winning the nuclear war (effect on equipment design etc)
  2. Picking potatoes (used as labour to fill in gaps in agriculture when needed)
  3. Pacifying satellite states (think Eastern Europe - particularly Czechoslovakia).

He says about point 3:
Kamil Galeev @kamilkazani
It gives context for the logic of Z-operation. It wasn't planned as a war. They designed it as a pacification modelled after the Operation Danube, 1968. Russian sources are quite open about it. "Operation was designed as the Czechoslovakia-68. Enter from all directions, put the new government. It didn't work out. For an entire month we pretended everything's alright and tried to win with a small force not prepared for a full scale war on eight directions simultaneously"

While Russia aimed for a quick victory in Ukraine, it wasn't planned to be a Blitzkrieg. It wasn't planned to be a war at all. It was a copypaste of "Danube" when USSR pacified the dissident Czechoslovakia and finished the Prague Spring. I mean it literally and not as a metaphor

Both Danube and Z-operation started with VDV attacking airports. In 1968 a Soviet transport plane asked for emergency landing in Prague because of an "accident". They allowed it. Plane landed, VDV disembarked and captured the airport to allow other invaders to disembark smoothly

Although the land invasion 2022 was modelled after 1968, it was worse prepared. In 1968 Czechoslovakia was attacked by an enormous force of 500 000 coming in two echelons. First echelon of 250 000 pushes forward, second one come next, occupies territory and secures supply lines

Z-invasion proceeded with far smaller force. Only 160-190 thousand Russian soldiers crossed the border with Ukraine in late Feb. Like in 1968, they pushed forward. But no second echelon came to occupy territory behind the first and secure the supply lines. Because it didn't exist

We've seen this reported elsewhere: the aim was to take Ukraine in 4 hours, if not 3 days. Putin's plan was mired in Soviet mythological thinking.

Then Galeev talks about how Western analysts underestimated the cultural impact of Donbass in 2014 and how this lead to mass military reform in Ukraine which was largely unnoticed and how it changed the psychology of Ukrainians.

He gives a really interesting case example of what is rumoured to have happened in Mariupol:

Kamil Galeev @kamilkazani
Consider a case when two Ukrainian helicopters evacuating the wounded from besieged Mariupol were shot down by Russians. Russian sources suggest that this evacuation wasn't incidental. Ukrainians had been systematically supplying the besieged city by air, unnoticed by Russians

"They had an established route unnoticed by our air Defense. They were brining ammo to Mariupol and the wounded from it. They were flying on a miminal height around 10 meters. They were avoiding settlements, turning to the Above sea and then to the Mariupol seaport"

"They could bring up to 12 tons of ammo when going to Mariupol and evacuate up to 60 wounded soldiers on a way back. We don't know how many times did they repeat it. This time they were unlucky to accidentally meet a patrol with a man-portable air-defence system on a way back"

In fact, we do have the indirect evidence that this account of how the besieged Mariupol had been supplied is probably true. Consider this record of two Ukrainian helicopters going to attack the Russian oil depot in Belgorod on a very low height

And finally he talks about how the Russian army is essentially just a vehicle for career officers with no actual military experience / knowledge who are unable culturally to do anything but say how great they are doing because constructive criticism kills your career. So they were stuck in a constant positive feedback loop.

His conclusion:
Kamil Galeev @kamilkazani
It is striking how much did the Western analysts overestimate the Russian army. It's even more striking how deeply did they underestimate the Ukrainian one. The Ukrainian military evolution since 2014 went almost completely unnoticed by the world.

There is a danger that Western analysis will now underestimate Russia and overestimate how much Ukraine has left in the tank, but its striking how there is now a real sense of how fucked the Russian army is...

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2022 10:55

Above Kamil Galeev thread about the state of the Russian army at this point here:
twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1511529610575441926

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2022 11:16

On the propaganda/political side of things:

Alex Kokcharov @AlexKokcharov
In #Russia, the authorities are reportedly circulating a memo to all government-controlled or state-owned entities / firms, to explain the official position on the Russian #war on #Ukraine to workers / employees.

1) The “military operation” is a preventive measure in order to prevent the full-scale aggression against Russia that is being prepared by Ukraine.
2) There was a real threat that Ukraine would use missile, nuclear and biological weapons against Russia.
3) Our cause is right. Russia does not start, but ends the 8-year war.
4) Pollster VTsIOM data show the support of the absolute majority of Russians.
5) The “special operation” is going according to plan, from victory to victory. Only professional servicemen are involved (no conscripts), “polite people” fight.
6) An information war has been unleashed against Russia by the West and Ukraine.
7) Inside Russia, the bourgeois elite is in opposition to the war. Quote: "The Russian people consider them traitors and degenerates."
8) Western sanctions would have been introduced anyway. There will be no sovereign default. Departure of foreign firms is temporary.

This is the type of government propaganda that is / will be fed to millions of Russians. A complete distortion of reality. Sadly, many will consume this propaganda and will believe such narratives.

Max Fras @maxfras
Dmitry Medvedev's newest (April 6) letter - 'on inquisition', basically a long defence of oligarchs' seized yachts, starts with a comparison of EU sanctions with the Inquisition and ends with a threat of Russia-EU war - translation:

Today we see with our own eyes what Europe has witnessed for almost the entire past millennium and for which the Roman Catholic Church repented at the end of the 20th century. It's about the Inquisition. /2

The current sanctions of the Western world against the Russian state, economy and business are very reminiscent of the methods of Inquisitio Haereticae Pravitatis Sanctum Officium. They accused, they tortured, they themselves passed the sentence, they burned the heretic. /3

Questions of spirituality are the last thing that interested the righteous inquisitors endowed with great power. Destroying the heretic, they staged outright robbery, appropriating gold, real estate & other property. First - worldly goods, only then - struggle for a holy cause /4

The denunciation by the inquisitors, intoxicated by their own impunity, meant a death sentence. After all, the papal inquisition executed Giordano Bruno not only for his 'heretical convictions'. /5

Officials of countries unfriendly to Russia and European bureaucrats do not offer to immediately throw our entrepreneurs into the fire. And so - all inquisitorial methods are in place. The basis of the accusation is belonging to an 'evil' state (Russia). /6

Evidence isn't required, a suspicion of "witchcraft" (connection with power) is sufficient Witnesses draw only from the side of the Grand Inquisitor (USA and their European lackeys). Disputes of the parties and competitiveness in the inquisitorial process are not allowed /7

(the accused Russian business does not have the right to a lawyer). And that's it. Goodbye, now: debita animadversione puniendum ('shall be punished according to merit')./8

Where is civil law, due process and the sacred private property? All accounts and other property are subject to arrest based on inquisitor's words. In the future, a decision on confiscation in favour of persons appointed by the inquisitors themselves is possible. What then? /9

The inquisitorial process was followed by a regular trial. The trial, as a rule, always pronounced the death sentence on a heretic, since the Church found them guilty of heresy. Appeals by the 'unfortunate' heretics were practically not allowed. /10

But today they are: the procedure for appealing against the decisions of the Grand Inquisitor exists. The judicial system operates both in the USA and Britain (common law) and in Europe (statutory law). /11

The system has the opportunity to correct the mistake of the inquisitional process (US authorities and puppets who joined). Moreover, in fairness, it must be admitted that in many Western countries, judiciary enjoys a significant degree of independence. /12

It is not as easy to undermine the judicial and legal foundations of Uncle Sam and Grandma Europe as it seems to individual politicians. Even despite the disease of Russophobia, which stopped the right and overshadowed the mind. /13

The fight against Russia is carried out solely on the basis of emotions, without any regard for common sense and even for the right. No one tries to delve deeper into their legislation or precedents, to apply the centuries-old basic principles on which they were built. /14

Why, if you can so easily and naturally take away what these countries never belonged to? The newly-appeared inquisitors, having excitedly tried on the leather jacket of Polygraph Poligrafovich Sharikov and his mentor Shvonder [Bulgakov reference!], make no bones about it. /15

Our opponents - let's face it - enemies of Russia, who are so vehemently seeking to 'cancel' Russian businesses, should understand that they will face a lot of lawsuits in the courts. Both in the national courts of the United States and Europe, and in international courts. /16

Here it will be possible to check what the vaunted Western justice machine will support: theft of the inquisitors or the fair demands of the owners. Moreover, the whole world will be watching these processes. /17

Not only Russian assets are located in Western jurisdictions - everyone can suffer from lawlessness. Legal impartiality & equality before the law will perish forever in the fire of the West's hatred for Russia. And what will be left? That's right: jus ad bellum [right to war] /18

So basically he's trying to frame the international Court of Human Rights as some kind of witch trial to persecute like during the Inquistion. They are ALREADY trying to delegitimise war crimes trials.

FWIW, I don't think you'd do this, if you thought there was no chance whatsoever it would come to that...

Note the it also is trying to create a 'moral cause' for the war and invoke it as a religious war. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church formally separated from Moscow and was granted self-governing status by the head of the Orthodox church in Constantinople in Jan 2019.
www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2022/01/06/why-did-the-russian-and-ukrainian-orthodox-churches-split

Few people in Orthodox Christian countries are churchgoers. Around 12% of the population in Ukraine and 6% in Russia attend regularly, according to the Pew Research Centre, a think-tank and pollster. But a far higher share—78% of Ukrainians and 71% of Russians—identify as Orthodox Christians. Religion is linked to national identity: 51% of Ukranians say it is important for a person to be Orthodox to be truly Ukrainian, and 57% of Russians say the same.

Some more here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church_of_Ukraine

Not everyone has recognised this independence: and no surprises that the Russian Orthodox Church is one such group...

Which also explains a lot about what the Russian Orthodox Church is pro-Putin. They don't like the loss of power...

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2022 11:20

The Pope expressing a wish to visit Kyiv is also an interesting move...

notimagain · 06/04/2022 11:20

And finally he talks about how the Russian army is essentially just a vehicle for career officers with no actual military experience / knowledge who are unable culturally to do anything but say how great they are doing because constructive criticism kills your career.

You are not going to get promoted within the Russian Army without having any military experience.

Did the source mean operational experience?

And FWIW constructive criticism, in the wrong context or offered in the wrong way, can potentially kill a career in any military anywhere in the world , so not sure that analysis is exactly novel.

RedToothBrush · 06/04/2022 11:22

Some definite positivity going on:

Nataliya Gumenyuk @ngumenyuk
Our beautiful Kyiv comes back to live. Subway is to run, restaurants to open, least important check-points are removed to make traffic easier. Mayors asks ppl not to come at least for a week, but they return. Border police confirms more ppl come back then leave Ukraine now

There are still sirens, but less.There is a feeling of victory in the battle for Kyiv with Bucha, Irpin, other town paying the price for Kyiv.What’s important:1) it’s clear it happened not because of any pressure to Russia, but UA military.This could be the case for other towns

2) Most of the Ukrainians do not search asylum elsewhere. Refugee programs are important for the most vulnerable, people like from Mariupol who have no place to come back, but defense and help with defense on the ground is the most important

3) We know Russian troops are moved the Donbas,the battles there might be colossal. It’s tragic,painful but imminent. The West may partially admit: in Kyiv Ukraine has already won.We’re cautions. But demining,rebuilding,treatment in hospitals,investigations - are a new stage

PestorPeston · 06/04/2022 11:32

The trenches dug at Chernobyl are interesting and frankly quite nutty
[[https://twitter.com/IntelDoge/status/1511602598394085380]]

PestorPeston · 06/04/2022 11:34

twitter.com/IntelDoge/status/1511602598394085380
fail

Ijsbear · 06/04/2022 12:04

Just catching up

They thought they were trying to tame the bear and make it dance for them and it didn't work

This just isn't true. They hoped for trade and for trade to ensure peace. HIstorically trade has often had a restraining influence on warmongers and ideas have spread through trade.

The information was there that Putin was a subtle, gifted shit of the first order at manipulation and that he was utterly ruthless in war, and the old Eastern Bloc countries knew he was deadly. But I can see why people wanted trade to continue and I don't believe it was only about the money. The whole purpose of the EU was to prevent another war in Europe and that's been achieved by dialogue, coming together and trade.

OP posts:
ChardonnaysPetDragon · 06/04/2022 12:10
It's such a shame. They wildlife around Chernobyl has recovered phenomenally in the years it was off limits and it was a nature reserve.
Shuuu · 06/04/2022 12:20

@Igotjelly

BBC reporting that Czech Republic are sending tanks to Ukraine, the first NATO country to do so.
Finally! Hopefully jets will follow. I think NATO is going to start breaking down walls now & start sending what is being asked. I heard missiles were being sent too. Why can’t someone anonymously buy the Jets from Poland and just push them over the border Grin
TheABC · 06/04/2022 12:20

@BringBackCoffeeCreams

If De Spaffle had an ounce of common sense or concern for the UK he could use the Russia report and the current situation to reverse brexit while saving face. Launch a full investigation into Russian meddling in the referendum, void the result as it was meddling from Russia, start the process of rejoining, label anyone who still thinks it's a good idea a Russian useful idiot.
He won't but I am wondering if a future government will.
EsmaCannonball · 06/04/2022 12:27

Ukraine reporting that the Russians have deployed mobile crematoria in Mariupol to cover up war crimes. Remember when analysts and the media were so confident that these crematoria were present to cover up the number of Russian casualties? Did they never question why an army expecting a cakewalk to Kyiv was simultaneously pre-empting a high casualty rate? It was always about killing civilians.

strawberriesarenot · 06/04/2022 12:30

Why can't jets be left close to the border where they can be borrowed or stolen?

Why does it have to be made public when arms are given to Ukraine?

vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 06/04/2022 12:37

@EsmaCannonball

Ukraine reporting that the Russians have deployed mobile crematoria in Mariupol to cover up war crimes. Remember when analysts and the media were so confident that these crematoria were present to cover up the number of Russian casualties? Did they never question why an army expecting a cakewalk to Kyiv was simultaneously pre-empting a high casualty rate? It was always about killing civilians.
That is totally chilling.
eglantine7 · 06/04/2022 12:53

We absolutely should not be taking these nuclear threats seriously enough to allow genocide. Red lines have been crossed from the start. We are so toothless and it's not right.

ScrollingLeaves · 06/04/2022 12:53

Re: mobile crematoria
Especially given responses to Bucha, they are bound to be more careful about bodies being left around.

Can satellite surveillance be sharp enough to get evidence of body loading etc?

Shuuu · 06/04/2022 12:54

metro.co.uk/2022/04/04/butcher-of-bucha-whose-troops-raped-and-shot-ukrainian-civilians-is-named-16402078/amp/

Here it is. A lot of news reporters are now releasing names. Let’s name them all. Disgusting people, we can only hope their friends & family stumble across this in Russia.

Ijsbear · 06/04/2022 12:55

It has occurred to me that if Russians are using Donbass men to fight instead of Russians so that they can keep the casualty figures low - well, if the Ukrainians do manage to take it back, there is going to be a infinitely smaller pool of pro-Russian people there. Half will resent the fact that Russia invaded, the other half will be dead/defeated/wounded.

OP posts:
PerkingFaintly · 06/04/2022 12:57

[quote PestorPeston]The team doing the Russia Report said that nobody would touch the subject of Brexit being funded by the Russians with a barge pole.

isc.independent.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/CCS207_CCS0221966010-001_Russia-Report-v02-Web_Accessible.pdf[/quote]
Yes, that's why sticking the crowbar into pre-existing issues is so very, very effective for Russia.

Whichever cause or movement he amplifies and levers on, there will be perfectly genuine supporters of the cause who feel very defensive at any suggestion of nefarious doings.

Some of their defensiveness may be calculated, eg if people feel an election win may be taken away from them. Some of it's a purely emotional response to a perceived attack on their tribe, in the same vein as crying Not All X Are Like That.

Whichever, it automatically creates for Putin an army of non-nefarious but fearful defenders who will deny deny deny Russian involvement at every turn.

Win-win for Putin.

As someone said earlier on these threads, we need to get better at acknowledging that Russia (and other nefarious actors) probably stick their beaks into pretty much every election or potentially divisive issue.

I thought Barry Gardiner MP's behaviour when one of his donors turned out to be a Chinese agent was exemplary. In the first place, he had kept MI5 up-to-date with the activities this Chinese national was doing with him. Then when she was outed, he seems to have dropped her like a hot cake rather than defensively covering up.

MI5 warning over 'Chinese agent' in Parliament
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-59984380

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