Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Chat

Join the discussion and chat with other Mumsnetters about everyday life, relationships and parenting.

Ukraine Invasion Part 18

999 replies

Ijsbear · 02/04/2022 14:10

Place for information, discussion, points of view, useful links and above all, a hope that this sovereign land can regain its freedom.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
Igotjelly · 02/04/2022 16:47

@Ijsbear

Point, 45k is low in terms of 44million people. And total depopulation means no one to work the fields and factories. So as you say it can't have been the plan to kill everyone!

It is an enormous number of people though. Their lists must be very, very long.

Oh absolutely, not for a second saying 45k isn’t a lot of people, hell one person would be one too many. Just wondered about the reasoning for such an abstract number.

@RedToothBrush that thread was really interesting, long but worth the read.

DGRossetti · 02/04/2022 16:48

.

Ukraine Invasion Part 18
RedToothBrush · 02/04/2022 16:53

@Igotjelly

Maybe really daft question but in the grand scheme of how many people live in these areas and the number of soldiers isn’t 45k actually pretty low? If the Russians planned to murder the entire population/ a good portion of it wouldn’t they need a damned sight more than 45k? Assume the plan would just be to mass grave the rest? If so why bother with any body bags at all?

Just trying to understand the logistics and intention.

You don't need to kill everyone to produce mass terror.

Remember the plan was that Zelensky would leg it and then they'd get a puppet government in straight away.

At that point you wouldn't have armed resistance in quite the same way we are seeing because there wouldn't be leadership and the central command for it.

Therefore you'd be looking to round up people you viewed as 'political agitators' to make an example of them.

Think about whats happening with the protests in Russia - except you'd round them up and simply shoot them because you'd say they were nazis and a threat to society. Because in a war zone there is no rule of law and order is maintained only by force or the social pressures of the captive public.

But because this became a war where the whole world was watching very intently and there was reporting of what was going on, this became something that couldn't be done.

As Kamil Galeev points out as part of the thread I linked to before:

Kamil Galeev @kamilkazani
Donbass is now a fully militarised statist society. There's almost no private sector. Locals must either work for government enterprises (for food) or serve in Donbass army (for better wage). You have no choice but to toil for pro-Russian warlords or to shed your blood for them

There's no law in Donbass, people have no protection against the arbitrary rule of pro-Russian warlords. There's obviously no place for dissidence, those who object will just disappear. People are purposefully kept in poverty so they can be better used as workers or cannon fodder

'People just disappear'.

Its not unlike what happened in Syria. People just disappeared. They were spent to prison if they were unlucky and were tortured rather than just been outright murdered. There are lots of mass graves there... but equally millions fleed. So no need to kill everyone. Those who remained live in poverty and have to do whatever they can to merely survive.

I think what you have to now be thinking of is what is happening to those left in the likes of Mariupol and Kherson and other occupied places.

The Ukrainians were aware of many of the appalling things that were already happening post 2014 to those in the Donbass area. That is in part precisely why they have fought so hard and didn't consider giving in. There are accounts of what was going on there which do fit in with the idea of what Sergj Sumlenny was saying.

You have to think back to what Putin was doing in East Germany and what he considered as acceptable practice as part of his days in the KGB.

Eastern Europe was not a nice place to live in you didn't obey authority...

ScrollingLeaves · 02/04/2022 16:54

@EsmaCannonball
“The images from Bucha are clear indications of war crimes. I posted at the tail-end of the other thread that some of the men had their hands tied behind the back. Some people are also suggesting that Max Levin was deliberately shot, but that it unconfirmed. Jeremy Bowen's report from outside Kyiv yesterday was also indicative of atrocities.

If you are interested in the genesis and development of the Azov Battalion, here is a YouTube video from Anton Shekhovtsov, a Ukrainian expert on the Far-Right.

youtu.be/7CPlZT3hKxY

If you are interested in cat pictures, I suggest you google Alexei Surovtsev, a man variously described as a Ukrainian actor, reality star and stripper, who has been rescuing pets from bomb-damaged areas.”

@EsmaCannonball Thank you for that. I read what you posted about Azov. This article is along similar lines if you have not already seen it. I do not have a share token but you can put the title in a browser to find it.

Don’t confuse patriotism and Nazism’: Ukraine’s Azov forces face scrutiny | Financial Times

www.ft.com/content/7191ec30-9677-423d-873c-e72b64725c2d

Igotjelly · 02/04/2022 16:57

@RedToothBrush incredibly helpful thank you!

DGRossetti · 02/04/2022 16:57

..meanwhile, for nerds, ongoing drone research.

www.theregister.com/2022/04/02/hoverflies_drone_research/

...
"We have now shown we can pick up clear and crisp acoustic signatures of drones, including very small and quiet ones, using an algorithm based on the hoverfly's visual system," said Anthony Finn, UniSA Professor of Autonomous Systems.
...

TargusEasting · 02/04/2022 16:58

www.reuters.com/world/europe/pope-says-he-is-considering-trip-kyiv-2022-04-02/

Pope blames the war on Putin.

PestorPeston · 02/04/2022 17:01

From the President of Lithuania

From this month on - no more Russian gas in Lithuania

Years ago my country made decisions that today allow us with no pain to break energy ties with the aggressor.

If we can do it, the rest of Europe can do it too!

If only our own chancellor had the balls to cut Russia out.

RedToothBrush · 02/04/2022 17:03

The number of Gestapo in Germany was considerably lower than you might think. The way it worked was by terrorising the population and by encouraging petty grudges so that people who didn't conform were 'shopped' by neighbours etc. They were then made an example of and there was more encouragment to identify others, in order to show that you weren't a threat or to ensure that others were the target not you.

Its a system that causes a race to the bottom in order to survive. But doesn't need a huge number of people to run. You just have to keep the fear levels extremely high - so punishments and deaths were public and brutal.

People disappearing - often randomly - also producing fear, because you don't know who is going to be next. Its like lining up people and picking 1 out of every 20 and just shooting them for no reason. It creates fear and a feeling of powerlessness.

The violence and scale of brutality makes people feel that resistance is futile.

Enter Zelensky.

This plan now doesn't work because he's empowered the population and shown leadership in the face of the fear. If he's martyred others will then simply follow. You have to kill a whole lot more people to try and control them because the planned culture of fear won't work. Precisely because he mobilised the population to be ready and willing to die.

jgw1 · 02/04/2022 17:06
The Pope's confused. I'm sure we were told it was Merkel's fault.
Igotjelly · 02/04/2022 17:08

@jgw1 thought we had settled on Farage 🤷‍♀️

DGRossetti · 02/04/2022 17:14

Interesting talk by friend of the Trump threads, Beau, as to what the fact the Russians have resorted to using "technicals" may mean.

RedToothBrush · 02/04/2022 17:15

Press now in Hostolmel

Jeremy Bowen
twitter.com/BowenBBC/status/1510287175534923799

And Irpen

Oz Katerji @OzKaterji
Can confirm Ukrainian armed forces destroyed an armoured convoy of 13 tanks and APCs 48 hours ago near Irpin. Visual confirmation to follow.
twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1510281020712624133
With pictures

Illia Ponomarenko @IAPonomarenko
Ukraine’s military: up to 75 Russian battalion tactical groups involved in the Ukraine campaign, up to 34 BTGs are being restored, 16 BTGs have been totally destroyed.

Thats 21% destroyed and a further 50% in such dire need they've had to be restored. That does tie in with the ballpark of numbers we've been seeing about how badly the Russian have been hit

(Naturally this begs more than a few questions about Ukrainian loses too - ones that can't easily be reinforced to the same degree).

DGRossetti · 02/04/2022 17:18
Now if he went incognito and pretty much dared the Russians to carry on shelling and risk a propaganda battle over "who killed the pope" with the backlash it would bring, I might - might - review being an atheist.
DGRossetti · 02/04/2022 17:18

[quote Igotjelly]@jgw1 thought we had settled on Farage 🤷‍♀️[/quote]
or Corbyn

TargusEasting · 02/04/2022 17:22

@DGRossetti
Yes quite! What a thing to do though.

Booklover3 · 02/04/2022 17:23

Thank you everyone. I’ve got hypertension and I can’t watch the news or videos etc about Ukraine right now till the BP is more controlled… so I get all my news about Ukraine pretty much from here. Thank you all again.

Igotjelly · 02/04/2022 17:30

I’m finding it really hard to process the horrific things happening there. I process things by talking them over but absolutely no one in ‘real life’ is in the least bit interested in engaging (unless it’s to put a Ukrainian flag on their Facebook page of course 🙄)

DGRossetti · 02/04/2022 17:34

I’m finding it really hard to process the horrific things happening there

There really is nothing new under the sun if you have a fascination with history. Not sure if that's a good or a bad thing, but it is "a thing" ...

Hillsmakeyoustrong · 02/04/2022 17:37

@Igotjelly i think people have grabbed onto some of the more recent, more positive headlines and carried on their merry way. Russia is withdrawing AND it's been sunny. Hoorah!

Igotjelly · 02/04/2022 17:44

[quote Hillsmakeyoustrong]@Igotjelly i think people have grabbed onto some of the more recent, more positive headlines and carried on their merry way. Russia is withdrawing AND it's been sunny. Hoorah![/quote]
Absolutely, I was speaking to my Mum about it and said how hard the images are to see of people fleeing Mariupol and the stories about people drinking radiator water etc and she was genuinely like “nope not interested” guess maybe it’s a coping mechanism (DH is the same) but I just feel like we owe it to the Ukrainian people to at least know the truth about what they’re facing.

RedToothBrush · 02/04/2022 17:45

Michael Weiss @michaeldweiss
Believe it or not, this is Russian disinformation at its most coherent.

Christo Grozev @christogrozev
Kremlin: "We bombed the maternity hospital because it was a recruiting center for Azov. But we didn't bomb it, Ukrainians did. Also there were no pregnant women there, just actors. But here's the pregnant woman. She also played the other pregnant woman. The one who actually died"

jgw1 · 02/04/2022 17:54

[quote Igotjelly]@jgw1 thought we had settled on Farage 🤷‍♀️[/quote]
Sorry, my mistake, I will try and pay better attention in future.

But isn't Farage, Putin's pet anyway?

EsmaCannonball · 02/04/2022 17:57

I mentioned yesterday that the Russians mined a confectionery factory in Bucha and poisoned the products. I've also seen a story today about an entire herd of cows being machine-gunned and read other stories about food warehouses, crop silos and farm equipment being deliberately destroyed. Add in the attacks on the oil depots, and it's clear that the Russians are slashing and burning as they retreat in preparation for their refreshed offensive.

EsmaCannonball · 02/04/2022 18:03

They've also bombed a large dairy farm.