Ukraine Invasion Part 18

[Ijsbear]

Place for information, discussion, points of view, useful links and above all, a hope that this sovereign land can regain its freedom.

Ursula von der Leyen

We have all seen the haunting images of Bucha.

This is what is happening when Putin´s soldiers occupy Ukrainian territory.

They call this liberation.
I call this war crimes.

The Russian authorities will have to answer for them.

@MagicFox

Do you think, with the exponential growth of autocracies, we'd ever see the loss of the free world?

Personally I don’t, I honestly truly believe that there will always be someone fighting on the side of liberty. I think there are dark days now and ahead but I really don’t believe that the ‘free world’ will ever be totally lost.

@JacquelineCarlyle

Goodness, that map is depressing.

It is depressing and yet there are other things.

On the one hand we can say that autocracies rely on a limited number of people. When they collapse they do just that.

On the other hand we can say that democracies are very young.

And then again we can say that once people live under a democracy they want and will accept nothing else.

The internet is a great flattener. I hold out hope that ultimately democracies have what people want. It is going to be a rough ride and the West will have to take risks.

as far as i can see, singling out Merkel is to try and divert from the UK Russian involvement and it also is a form of justifying Putins evil.

I don't think that's what it is. For me it's trying to see the bigger picture. And most articles, while of course talking of Merkel, because after all she is the best knows German political of our times mention Gerhard Schröder as well. And there is also Macron. They thought they were trying to tame the bear and make it dance for them and it didn't work. It did lead to some complacency, Europe wide, the UK included.

We were all happy to take their money and energy carriers.

What is derailing is not this, it's the constant jibes from the Corbyn contingent.

Even Zelenskyy had a go at Germany the other day, isn't that something worthy of discussion?

@TargusEasting
“The internet is a great flattener“
I thought it made for opposing mountains rather than a plain.

Also, even though it is much more possible to find out information because of it, at the same time, never has anything been more effective for brain washing and spreading conspiracy theories.

Keeping an eye on some more restrained US chatter (anyone remember USENET ?) I saw an interesting comment about bringing Putin to justice, saying that broadly the Russians aren't going to roll over into a cuddly democratic state anytime soon as they are too wedded to the Strong Man way of doing business. They went on to say that which "Strong Man" is more up for grabs, and the next one may well see an opportunity in disposing of handing over the previous one. Especially if it lifted sanctions and raised their standing in Russia.

TL;DR is there someone already thinking about ousting Putin and lifting sanctions in one fell swoop ?

Re Navalny tweeting what he has seen on Russian media - why on earth can we not see it for ourselves? By allowing censoring and banning of a TV station that all Russians watch surely we’re allowing ourselves to be kept in ignorance of the other side’s point of view, which imo only ramps up hostility on both sides.

And then again we can say that once people live under a democracy they want and will accept nothing else

I disagree, there is control of media in such a way that we live under the illusion of democracy whilst being drip fed a narrative political parties want us to believe & we do too!
Barely a voice raised on the sell off of Ch4, which according to one leading Tory (no less) is being done out of vengeance of their brexit coverage.... nothing "democratic" about that!

Especially true here in the UK with its FPTP system, where parties in Westminster get huge majorities based on a minority of the vote, not content with all of that, we see changes to union Labour party funding and boundaries to try and remove any official opposition.....

Putin found it incredibly easy to circumvent so called controls on media, on donations - where is the democracy? the demands for change being met?

Little wonder he thought he could march into Ukraine unopposed.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

What is derailing is not this, it's the constant jibes from the Corbyn contingent.

Even Zelenskyy had a go at Germany the other day, isn't that something worthy of discussion?

Having a go at Germany, German politics is different to singleing out Merkel for being born at the wrong side of the wall unless Germany is not a democracy anymore.

Ukrainian intelligence has claimed that a coup is being prepared against Russian dictator Vladimir Putin.
kyivindependent.com/national/a-coup-against-putin-wishful-thinking-or-a-real-possibility

From the Kyiv Independent, seems unlikely but I'd like it to be true.

I also want to see headlines saying PUTIN IS DEAD with a small retraction notice following stating that this story has been published a bit early.

It would be amazing but I agree too good to be true. Ukraine are probably trying to sow seeds of discord - there was a flurry of this a couple of weeks ago too

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

But thats the point and why i say its a collective failure, only i think its the UK at the fore, not Germany.

Trading is one thing (we all did that in the days of the USSR) its the normalisation of Russia and its outrages - Georgia, Crimea, Litvinenko Salisbury.... all done with little opposition and allowing to Putin to fund the Tory party, use London to launder billionaires of criminal assets and take us out of the EU... its quite outrageous that we tolerate it all.

No media outlet is running with what we have done.

The team doing the Russia Report said that nobody would touch the subject of Brexit being funded by the Russians with a barge pole.

isc.independent.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/CCS207_CCS0221966010-001_Russia-Report-v02-Web_Accessible.pdf

I saw an interesting comment about bringing Putin to justice, saying that broadly the Russians aren't going to roll over into a cuddly democratic state anytime soon as they are too wedded to the Strong Man way of doing business.

Were not European countries once run in exactly the same way?

Ukrainian intelligence has claimed that a coup is being prepared against Russian dictator Vladimir Putin.

Why would they do that? By claiming this they are effectively warning Putin. Surely if they want the coup to succeed they would keep quiet with this information.

Very odd.

The Guardian ran the story
www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/21/what-does-the-russia-report-mean-for-british-people-and-politics

The Conservative party have constantly encouraged us to be a Services country, we don't make much, we don't grow much, we don't mine much. We do launder money very well and it keeps our pensions looking good plus gives work to the big accountancy companies.
Oligarchs are not exclusively Russian, look how many people got rich(er) quick with pandemic orders and the Royal Mail sell off. We are pretty corrupt ourselves.

It's a bloody good job Merkel was in charge in Germany otherwise we wouldn't have a woman to blame for the appauling actions of men. If that happened we'd really be in trouble.

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

Ukrainian intelligence has claimed that a coup is being prepared against Russian dictator Vladimir Putin.

Why would they do that? By claiming this they are effectively warning Putin. Surely if they want the coup to succeed they would keep quiet with this information.

Very odd.

Because Putin is a paranoid nutjob. The more distrustful he is of those around him, the closer to collapse his regime moves.

Because Putin is a paranoid nutjob. The more distrustful he is of those around him, the closer to collapse his regime moves.

No, why would Ukrainian Intelligence claim that.

Read my post.

Thoughts on a post Putin Russia with a constitutional monarchy based on the Rurikid Dynasty..the irony of this would be Zelensky as PM....Ukraine and Russia unified, but not in the way Vladi envisioned...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rurik_dynasty

I'd like to thank Norman on facebook for this gem.

Having a go at Germany, German politics is different to singleing out Merkel for being born at the wrong side of the wall unless Germany is not a democracy anymore.

Well, this is what Zelenskyy said, and I quote, maybe take it up with him? But maybe he's doing it because she is a woman, who knows?

"I invite Mrs. Merkel and Mr. Sarkozy to visit Bucha, to see what the policy of 14 years of concessions to Russia has led to,’"

Or maybe he singles her out because she was born on the wrong side of the tracks.

[quote PestorPeston]The team doing the Russia Report said that nobody would touch the subject of Brexit being funded by the Russians with a barge pole.

isc.independent.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/CCS207_CCS0221966010-001_Russia-Report-v02-Web_Accessible.pdf[/quote]
But we ALL know that the French, USA, German, Hungarian politics etc, etc, were meddled with by the Russians. Just not Brexit.

Oh - and the Scottish Referendum. But not Brexit. Not that anyone has checked, for some reason.

I don't see what's so hard for you to understand...

@ChardonnaysPetDragon

Because Putin is a paranoid nutjob. The more distrustful he is of those around him, the closer to collapse his regime moves.

No, why would Ukrainian Intelligence claim that.

Read my post.

I did read it. Ukrainain Intelligence are saying it to fan the flames of his paranoia.