Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 9

[cakeorwine]

Because MN only allows 1000 posts and this is fast moving

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4496974-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-8

@Thewayshetalks seems today they also said this wasn't the case

Poland won't send its fighter jets to #Ukraine as well as allow to use its airports. We significantly help in many other areas.

That needs to be read very carefully and with a view to exactly what has been announced before calling it out as fake or not.

Oh dreary me, thanks for the Berlin post

That sound's very well organised, And heartening.

@Thewayshetalks

What is scary (to me anyway) is that they declared they could nuke all NATO states at once leaving no retaliation for them

Yes, but they also thought that they could take over Ukraine and we can all see how that is going.

@Thewayshetalks

What is scary (to me anyway) is that they declared they could nuke all NATO states at once leaving no retaliation for them

Our systems will be alerted as soon as a warhead has been activated towards a NATO country and ours will be activated in retaliation before its even reached where it’s heading.

It will only take 20 minutes for a nuclear warhead to reach here from Russia and there’s some talk they have Nukes that travel off radar and will reach in 5 minutes. Either way, no one will win in this type of war.

@notimagain

Poland won't send its fighter jets to #Ukraine as well as allow to use its airports. We significantly help in many other areas.

That needs to be read very carefully and with a view to exactly what has been announced before calling it out as fake or not.

It's Poland who have said it's fake

Ukrainians standing up to Russians in Melitopol, it's from telegram originally but unverified . If true it does demonstrate well how this is an unwinnable war for Russia, with such a huge population the resistance will just keep coming

twitter.com/ralee85/status/1500026068782178304?s=21

ohdrearydrearyme Germany really has stepped up.

@Justanotherlurker

twitter.com/PremierRP_en/status/1500345167211114497

‼️FAKE NEWS‼️
Unfortunately you are spreading misinformation with quotation from 27/02/22.

Poland won't send its fighter jets to #Ukraine as well as allow to use its airports. We significantly help in many other areas.

Firstly you are conflating two different things.

Sending planes and using Poland as a ground base.

The latter will not happen (unless something dramatically changes) but the former might.

I would not call information provided by the US Secretary of State "fake news".

www.politico.eu/article/us-secretary-of-state-confirms-plans-to-supply-ukraine-with-fighter-jets-via-poland/amp/

@Justanotherlurker

twitter.com/PremierRP_en/status/1500345167211114497

‼️FAKE NEWS‼️
Unfortunately you are spreading misinformation with quotation from 27/02/22.

Poland won't send its fighter jets to #Ukraine as well as allow to use its airports. We significantly help in many other areas.

I noticed you commented on Germany and poor weapons being sent to Ukraine.

I replied but you may have missed it.

"The issue does not affect the first batch of German weapons supplies, which has already been delivered to Ukraine.

A shipment of 1,000 anti-tank rockets and 500 fully operational US-made Stinger anti-aircraft missiles was safely delivered this week.

Berlin announced this week that it plans to follow it up with a delivery of 2,700 of the Strela missiles.

But it has now emerged that 700 of the missiles are so badly damaged they are no longer operational.

The German defence ministry was reportedly surprised by the government announcement, because the Strela missiles were declared obsolete and placed in storage in 2014. They are at least 35 years old and had been declared unsafe.
The German defence ministry was reportedly surprised by the government announcement, because the Strela missiles were declared obsolete and placed in storage in 2014. They are at least 35 years old and had been declared unsafe.

The Ukrainian government reportedly specifically requested the missiles despite their age.

But 700 are affected by tiny cracks which have led to corrosion and mean they cannot be used.

Germany is expected to deliver the remaining 2,000 missiles despite the fact they are no longer considered safe to handle."

So they sent a lot of anti tank weapons and anti aircraft weapons that were fine, but some of the other weapons they sent were obsolete.

www.newstatesman.com/international-politics/geopolitics/2022/03/the-new-age-of-disorder

The triumph of liberalism was a mirage. There were wars in the Gulf, the Balkans, the Caucasus and the Middle East. Many were wars of resources or religion – types of violent conflict that were supposed to be fading away. The war in Ukraine continues this pattern. The role of resources will become apparent as sanctions fail or rebound. The influence of religion will remain obscure or incredible for most in the West. Some have noted Putin citing Ivan Ilyin, a 19th-century émigré Orthodox theologian and supporter of the White armies in the Russian Civil War, as one of his favourite writers. Not many noticed when last August Tass reported that Putin’s Mephistophelian foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, had denounced the West for backing Ukraine’s church, which in October 2018 split from its Russian counterpart after three centuries of accepting Moscow’s authority. While calling for peace, Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and all Russia has come out in support of Putin. Ukraine is being invaded, it seems, in order to reclaim Kyiv for Holy Russia. Western observers are baffled by the way Putin has invoked Russian spiritual values to justify the bloody conquest on which he seems bent. Some dismiss his profession of faith as a cynical ploy, others diagnose insanity. A few – of whom I am one – suspect his Orthodoxy could be genuine. But while he may hold the fate of Europe in his hands, it is a mistake to focus on him as the sum of all our fears.

Putin is the face of a world the contemporary Western mind does not comprehend. In this world, war remains a permanent part of human experience; lethal struggles over territory and resources can erupt at any time; human beings kill and die for the sake of mystical visions; and saving the victims of tyranny and aggression is often impossible. These are hard truths, to be sure. But the time for pretence and illusion has passed. The enervating dream of a global liberal order must be abandoned, and the reckless disarmament of the past decades reversed. Only then will we be prepared for whatever Putin’s war brings.

Have been reading these threads with genuine gratitude for the well-sourced and informed content. On the other hand, am starting to notice that they're being weakened by a fair amount of uninformed speculation. Nobody on here actually knows any more than those involved in the negotiations but, going by some of the comments, you wouldn't know it

I think people are getting confused about the fighter jets. The Ukraine pilots know how to fly old soviet planes. Poland have a stock of these planes and may send them if the USA replaces them. This is the same as sending weapons...which is already happening.

As Russia and Ukraine have been in dispute for years concerning the gas pipeline that traverse the country do you think that Russia will use this to disable/shutdown/blow up the pipelines thus making Nord Stream 2 a requirement.
2022 Ukraine combat-related gas issues
The Crisis Committee approved by order of the Ministry of Energy of Ukraine decreed on 26 February 2022 that non-transit natural gas exports from Ukraine are prohibited.[160][161] By 4 March 2022 LLC Gas TSO of Ukraine had shut down 16 gas distribution stations
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_disputes

@Hawkins001 I'm sure you are a decent person but until the UK consulate sites have specific Ukrainian links, many will wonder why our response is so lacking.
The thing about evacuating 1million, maybe 2 million people very quickly is that it is a bit chaotic and the people doing the processing need to be efficiently organised.

NEW: Polish border guard confirms that over a million have now crossed its borders from Ukraine.

1 million in 10 days.

twitter.com/lewis_goodall/status/1500563364296204288?t=FU4r9ox0UW4Np8R4ioQUSg&s=19

@barms90

I think people are getting confused about the fighter jets. The Ukraine pilots know how to fly old soviet planes. Poland have a stock of these planes and may send them if the USA replaces them. This is the same as sending weapons...which is already happening.

Thank you for explaining. I was getting into a tight panic over it

t's Poland who have said it's fake

Source??

This was reported today by Poland and USA

It is reported that it 'may' happen, remember this was touted last week as well, I imagine it is not as clear cut as some on here are making out. It will have ramifactions for Poland that they probably won't want to risk.

Putin has been in power for a very long time. Up until now, he's been reasonably moderate on the war generating front

Sorry, did you miss the utter horror he inflicted on Chechnya? Or the ongoing violence there?

Syria?

The last 14 years of conflict he's kept going in Georgia since invading in 2008?

Likewise Transnistria in Moldova?

The last 8 years of death in Ukraine?

He's acted to maintain ongoing conflicts in the countries he wants to stop from joining NATO - because no country with ongoing conflict will ever be accepted for membership as it would immediately bring all the other members into that conflict too.

Has there been a single year of his dictatorship where he hasn't been inflicting death and destruction on other countries?

BBC
Hundreds of Jewish refugees arrive in Israel from Ukraine

Yolande Knell, BBC Middle East correspondent, Jerusalem

About 300 Jewish refugees have arrived in Israel from Ukraine, among the first of what the country expects to be "a very, very big wave" of immigration.

It has been suggested that more than 200,000 Ukrainians who are Jewish or have Jewish family ties could be taken in and more than 600,000 Russians in the same categories.

Has there been a single year of his dictatorship where he hasn't been inflicting death and destruction on other countries?

Compare it to the US. Almost a new warzone country every year for fifty years and more. Neither look good.

So far on these threads the IAEA and US state department have been called out as fake news.

But the Daily Mail says so....

Some of the stuff on these threads is speculative, people do links in good faith and usually mention when they are suspect.

In war some things one would imagine to be secret are actually very publicised. And vice versa.

@PestorPeston
The Russians are probably doing better in the south because they want to. Russia want/needs the south east and would like the south. Have a look at a map, this is an important area for them

So them annexing Crimea laid the groundwork for this in a way, given Ukraine lost a significant amount of its naval vessels during the annexation ? The South is very vulnerable isn't it , you have warships with a colossal artillary range up against what ?

@SpaceshiptoMars

Has there been a single year of his dictatorship where he hasn't been inflicting death and destruction on other countries?

Compare it to the US. Almost a new warzone country every year for fifty years and more. Neither look good.

I am not wasting my time on your whataboutery beyond pointing out that is what you are doing.