Ukraine invasion discussion thread - part 9

[cakeorwine]

Because MN only allows 1000 posts and this is fast moving

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/_chat/4496974-The-Invasion-is-ongoing-Part-8

NEW: @ZelenskyyUa to make “historic address” to MPs tomorrow at 5pm. Screens to be installed overnight and more than 500 headsets will be made available
twitter.com/BethRigby/status/1500906770738425864?t=GmgCtEzV86BwrZgS3srmhw&s=19

Oh gosh...what is the historical address?
Surely to keep fighting would be the usual, no fly zone would be usual?

@workisnotawolf

Can someone please explain how neutrality affects sovereignty? Last time I checked Switzerland was a neutral country with absolute democracy.

Regarding the territories, what realistically are the chances of Ukraine bringing Crimea back into its borders officially?

I agree there is the issue with the size of the separatist regions.

And the big elephant in the room is that Russia cannot be trusted. But what realistically can EU and NATO countries do in that regard to support whatever ends up being agreed? Because there will have to be compromise on both parts. It is nobody’s interest worldwide to run Ukraine and Russia into the ground in a war lasting for years.

Switzerland's neutrality is a choice. They are free to alter their stance should they choose to.

Russia does not have the right to dilute the self-determination of another sovereign state by dictating its political future. The freedom to make choices about entering/leaving alliances is a part of sovereignty.

What time is the address in the UK?

What could the historic address be? Please don’t say he wants us to support him in ww3?

@AgnesWestern

What could the historic address be? Please don’t say he wants us to support him in ww3?

It is historic because it has not been done like this before in the House of Commons and not because of anything that he may or may not say.

Switzerlands neutral status has served it's banking soul.
How rich are they from accepting dodgy money from all over the world.
In fact I wouldn't be surprised if they did their stand for Ukraine to swiftly divert attention from dubious practise.

Didn't the FSB person say June was when Russia would be bankrupt ? If the rouble is worth half a US cent, maybe that point is a lot closer ?

@RedToothBrush

This is a real tweet:

Conservatives @conservatives
🇬🇧🤝🇨🇦🤝🇳🇱
𝐏𝐮𝐭𝐢𝐧 𝐦𝐮𝐬𝐭 𝐟𝐚𝐢𝐥.

That is why the UK, Canada and the Netherlands will lead 𝐚 𝐧𝐞𝐰 𝐜𝐨𝐚𝐥𝐢𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧 to coordinate humanitarian, economic and defensive support for Ukraine

Hells Bells!

There is just so much to talk about with that tweet/poster/coalition/photo op??

Not sure ‘Just Launched’ is hitting the mark right now/reading the room sympathetically.

Can someone please explain how neutrality affects sovereignty? Last time I checked Switzerland was a neutral country with absolute democracy.

Neutrality doesn't affect sovereignty when a country voluntarily chooses neutrality for its own reasons. Neutrality (which in this case wouldn't actually be neutrality, they would have to toe the Russian line) imposed by a foreign, greater, power does affect sovereignty, because they won't be allowed to choose anything else. It would be like Finlandization except with less independence.

@AgnesWestern

What could the historic address be? Please don’t say he wants us to support him in ww3?

Well yes it will be that

He can’t be asking for a no fly zone again?! Surely he knows we can’t go there.

@AgnesWestern

He can’t be asking for a no fly zone again?! Surely he knows we can’t go there.

He will because he will hope that at some point someone will say yes. We just have to hope that the UK remain level headed

That is why the UK, Canada and the Netherlands will lead 𝐚 𝐧𝐞𝐰 𝐜𝐨𝐚𝐥𝐢𝐭𝐢𝐨𝐧 to coordinate humanitarian, economic and defensive support for Ukraine

Dear God, I hope that the Netherlands and Canada's efforts are run by someone better than Patel.

What could the historic address be? Please don’t say he wants us to support him in ww3?

More like Coldwar 2.0

@AgnesWestern

He can’t be asking for a no fly zone again?! Surely he knows we can’t go there.

It’s a bit nerve wracking but we’ll have to stick with no

I assume US did too, if asked

I think it would be interesting if true about Syrian troops getting involved, now that might allow someone to lobby the UN to allow Nato to intervene as they did in Serbia and Libya ?

@MarshaBradyo I’m pretty sure the USx said no to that but said about providing planes instead.

Can someone please explain how neutrality affects sovereignty? Last time I checked Switzerland was a neutral country with absolute democracy.

I think you are conflating issues.

Democracy and sovereignty aren’t the same thing, and in the case of Ukraine both are being threatened. Democracy is being threatened because someone is trying to overthrow their elected leader. Sovereignty is being threatened because that “someone” is actually another country. Neither of these things relate to neutrality.

In the case of Switzerland, the people repeatedly vote for governments who maintain neutrality. Their vote and government decisions are respected so they maintain both democracy and sovereignty. Ukrainian people voted for a government which promised closer ties to the EU. Russia want to overrule the vote and government to enforce neutrality so both democracy and sovereignty are threatened.

Anyone can make a poster.

Thats taken me exactly 23 minutes.

Can I have a very well paid job working for Conservative HQ please???

Well, I know Russia don’t actually want Ukraine to be neutral, but that is what they pretend (when it suits them).

scenario. I think it's naive to think that letting him have Ukraine (and Ukraine is not 'ours' to bargain with) would make the threat of wider conflict go away. It would delay it only.

Agreed. There's no weaselling out of this by giving other people's countries away.

'I think there comes a time where someone has to back down for the greater good

I'm sure @ThirtyAndfeelingFifty you'd be keen to 'back down for the greater good' if someone forced their way into your house and said the downstairs now belonged to them and they'd do terrible things if you disagreed.

I've mentioned before I'm impressed by blinken.
He is the only statesman I'm seeing with actual experience and depth of knowledge on his subject i'e he hasn't spent the last four years in education.

Does anyone else compare? Perhaps in the EU?
Canada??

@Wrongkindofovercoat

I think it would be interesting if true about Syrian troops getting involved, now that might allow someone to lobby the UN to allow Nato to intervene as they did in Serbia and Libya ?

The UN is a dead duck here. As a founding member, Russia (like ourselves) has a veto on any decisions.

I’m worried about this new conservative/Ukraine coalition poster.

How much more fuel does Putin need to aim directly at us?!