Parents are unreliable friends?

[FanGirlX]

My sister is 45, she was unable to have children due to infertility. Lovely sister, great auntie,

She has been running a group for child free people for about 5 years. They do hiking, camping, trips away, theatre, cinema, dinners. She has always said that it's difficult being childless from mid to late 30s onwards because most of your friends start to have children and are no longer free to socialise. So that's why she set up the group on meet-up, has made loads of friends and has a great time.

She told me today that there has been an influx of mid 40s women into the group, who have children in their teens. The group have voted to remove anyone who joins and turns out to have children, no matter how old the children are, reasons being:

The group is advertised as being for child free people

Parents trade in their friendships and social life for children, that's a choice they make but they can't expect to waltz into a ready made friends and activity group, once those children grow up develop their own social lives

Parents are unreliable friends

I told her that I can see why women whose children are growing up join - they've spent the last 15 years, or so, tending to their children and now they feel lonely now the kids are old enough not to need them. They don't have childcare responsibilities in the same way that they did when the children were younger. They see the group out doing fun things and think they'd like to join and have fun too. She said that she felt lonely in her 30s as her friends basically left her out because she couldn't have children, so she doesn't see why she should provide a social scene for mothers.

Is there really such a barrier between parents and non parents?

I don't agree that people who have had children don't deserve friends and a social life. BUT I suspect part of what the group provides is people who know how it feels to have not had children. So for that reason I don't think she is unreasonable to restrict the group to women who are childfree (by choice or not)

Having teenage children is by no means the same as being child free - the group was founded for people who have a shared experience and this simply doesn't apply to parents.
I do think your sister may be unfairly pushing her resentment at her own friends' neglect of her onto innocent people who may themselves have been better behaved towards their own child free friends. But she's not wrong really in that it isn't her responsibility to provide entertainment for people who don't fit the groups demographic.

I agree with her not including people who have children, as it is a child free group. Her being lonely in her thirties doesn't give her the right to take it out on people in her forties though. That part makes her sound a little bit of a twat. But tbh, I don't think I'd join a group for non parents as I have had children, so she shouldn't even really need to explain that part to anyone. It's for people who don't have kids. Seems obvious enough to me 🤷‍♀️

Perhaps it might be worth considering that your sister would have more in common with late 40s /early 50s woman with grown up children, that child free woman best part of 2 decades younger.

She said that when her old friends had younger children they were always cancelling on one planned nights out because the child was sick, babysitter cancelled etc. That's why she considers parents to be unreliable as friends, she said she understands as children come first but it does mean that parents are more unreliable as friends than non parents. I said that sort of thing is less likely to happen when the children are old enough to be left in by themselves, so parents of older children will be less unreliable.

I do see her point. I've always known she runs the group but I think I'm a bit taken aback that she takes such a hard line on mother's, even if their kids have left home.

Why on earth is this confusing for you?

It’s a group for women without children. End of story.

@MargosKaftan

Perhaps it might be worth considering that your sister would have more in common with late 40s /early 50s woman with grown up children, that child free woman best part of 2 decades younger.

I don't understand your comment.

The group is for childless / child free women of all ages but seems to be mostly women from mid 30s to mid 50s. She's 45, so her friends are if a similar age.

But I suppose she's only taking a hard line in the context of the group and it isn't a group for mothers. For me, a mum going to that group would be like a random woman rocking up to an NCT class when she wasn't pregnant nor ever planning to be. It wouldn't mean I hate all childless women if I said she shouldn't be at NCT.

She’s established a group with the shared experience of childlessness. The problem with adding people with kids (and I have four of them) is not only that they don’t share the experience that led to the group’s founding, but that many parents end up making the conversation all about their kids. Whatever age the kids are. Which is presumably one of the things the other group members are trying to avoid.

Perhaps by “unreliable friends” she just means they have other relationships they will always prioritise over the friendship and she wants the group to be a space she can be free of that feeling?

Really? You think she takes a hard line on mothers when she set up her group for childless women after she felt excluded by mothers? Their experience is very different from hers and they don't meet the membership criteria for the group.

Maybe the ones with dc will inevitably talk about /pull out pics of their dc. Possibly inappropriate..
No dc should mean none.

I suppose your sister might be quite pissed off at the entitlement some patents display in thinking the world revolves around their family and now it suits the, they can just access whatever they want, even when it's clear this group isn't for them!

@SarahJessicaParkin

But I suppose she's only taking a hard line in the context of the group and it isn't a group for mothers. For me, a mum going to that group would be like a random woman rocking up to an NCT class when she wasn't pregnant nor ever planning to be. It wouldn't mean I hate all childless women if I said she shouldn't be at NCT.

That's a good way to explain it I think. Thanks.

I think it's reasonable to not allow parents in the group. Being a parent of teenage or adult children is a different life experience to being childless. I am childless not by choice and would welcome being in a group like this. One thing I particularly struggle with is in social situations such as a dinner with friends, the conversation will inevitably be dominated by talk of children, school, family trips, etc, and I can't join in those conversations - that's probably the sort of thing she is trying to avoid by restricting group membership. I only have one childless friend and I really cherish meeting her, knowing that we are in the same mental space.
(I'd be interested to join your sister's group! Is she easy to find?)

And also, if the group stays together long enough, the parents might start going on about grandchildren; wanting grandchildren, when will we get grandchildren, "oh Olivia and Oliver are finally giving us a grandchild, here's the scan pic...."

Would ruin the whole idea surely.

I also have children who I adore btw, but can definitely understand the sister's problem with parents coming to her childless people group

I think there can be quite a big barrier between parents and childless people but it's an uncomfortable one so nobody talks about it.

I have fertility issues. Would love to have had a family by now but don't want to discuss it in any great detail. I also don't want to be surrounded by people who spend a lot of time talking about their children.

I'd imagine if your sister lets people with kids into the group she runs, she'll soon find herself surrounded by conversations about kids / family life and that isn't what she wants. And if her experience is anything like mine, she'll find some of those parents pity her for not having children, and that's both awful and upsetting.

I think it's perfectly fair for her to say no to mothers, even if their kids are older.

Also, I did find a lot of my friends did become less reliable when they became parents. I don't blame them, I understand why, but that doesn't make it any less true.

Ooh I would love a childfree group, are they based in London or Essex by any chance?

I do see her point btw. It's nice to connect with childfree people and she has made the group that way, the dynamic would change if the reason for the group changes.

One example she mentioned, of a woman who they plan to remove, is someone who in her late 40s, divorced, children have left home and she lives alone. The woman has been along to a few outings and then mentioned to other group members that she had adult children living away from home. I found it surprising that are going to remove her because she's unlikely to be unreliable due to childcare.

I hadn't considered that the group bonded over their childless / child free experience though. That puts a different perspective on it.

Sounds like a group I’d enjoy! Where is she based?

And yes, IME parents can be unreliable friends and seem completely unable to have a conversation without it going back to naps/feeding/school/hobbies etc.

It's based in the NW. I can ask her what it's called.

Just as many parents bond with other parents over their shared experiences, I think it's great there's a group purposefully built for non parents to do the same. I see where your sister and her group are coming from here. I also think it may seem extreme to you, but if they start letting in the odd parent here or there, it will change the basis of the group entirely.

@FanGirlX
"I hadn't considered that the group bonded over their childless / child free experience though. That puts a different perspective on it."
I think this in itself is an example of why she wants to remove parents from her group. I'm guessing you are a parent (because you mentioned your sister is a good auntie) so you haven't thought about bonding over being childless, whereas those of us posting comments here who are childless have instantly recognised the issue.
There are plenty of other groups out there for single women, retired people, divorced people, parent groups, etc, Let your sister and her friends have the group that they want.

"I hadn't considered that the group bonded over their childless / child free experience though. That puts a different perspective on it."

It's a joy for me and not something society really recognises. Shame for me it's NW.

I hope her group continues to flourish though.

In my experience she's right. Also, some parents can't seem to talk about anything except their children, and childcare issues. Understandable, but deadly dull for childless people.

@perimenofertility

Yes I am but as I didn't have DD until I was 40, I do understand what she means about feeling lonely and left out in your 30s.

I think I always thought the group was for women without childcare responsibilities. I didn't realise it specifically meant those who had never had them.

This isn't supposed to be a negative thread about my sister btw, she's great and us definitely cool auntie to DD and my other sister's children.