Parents are unreliable friends?

[FanGirlX]

My sister is 45, she was unable to have children due to infertility. Lovely sister, great auntie,

She has been running a group for child free people for about 5 years. They do hiking, camping, trips away, theatre, cinema, dinners. She has always said that it's difficult being childless from mid to late 30s onwards because most of your friends start to have children and are no longer free to socialise. So that's why she set up the group on meet-up, has made loads of friends and has a great time.

She told me today that there has been an influx of mid 40s women into the group, who have children in their teens. The group have voted to remove anyone who joins and turns out to have children, no matter how old the children are, reasons being:

The group is advertised as being for child free people

Parents trade in their friendships and social life for children, that's a choice they make but they can't expect to waltz into a ready made friends and activity group, once those children grow up develop their own social lives

Parents are unreliable friends

I told her that I can see why women whose children are growing up join - they've spent the last 15 years, or so, tending to their children and now they feel lonely now the kids are old enough not to need them. They don't have childcare responsibilities in the same way that they did when the children were younger. They see the group out doing fun things and think they'd like to join and have fun too. She said that she felt lonely in her 30s as her friends basically left her out because she couldn't have children, so she doesn't see why she should provide a social scene for mothers.

Is there really such a barrier between parents and non parents?

Were you motivated by entitlement when that is what you thought too?

No, ignorance. Those posters who read the earlier posts, and then posted that parents should be allowed to join, can't claim to be motivated by ignorance though, can they?

It’s hard to see how someone who has suffered infertility couldn’t immediately see why a child free group might have been a good thing.

Petty comment. Read the thread.

@FanGirlX

Were you motivated by entitlement when that is what you thought too?

No, ignorance. Those posters who read the earlier posts, and then posted that parents should be allowed to join, can't claim to be motivated by ignorance though, can they?

You're not only being harsh to people who have said that, though, you're being harsh to everybody.

@MaryAndGerryLivingInDerry

The group is for child free people so trans identities will be irrelevant.

Sorry, my mistake - I forgot the OP said ‘people’ originally, the references to women made me think it was single-sex.

You're not only being harsh to people who have said that, though, you're being harsh to everybody.

I'm not being harsh to everyone. Just those who have dropped in, either without reading the earlier posts or who disagree with the earlier posts, to post that parents should be allowed to join. That my sister set up the group because she is bitter and wants revenge on parents.

Sorry, my mistake - I forgot the OP said ‘people’ originally, the references to women made me think it was single-sex.

I'm actually not sure about this. The group is all women. I know that there is at least one gay woman in the group because my sister has mentioned her in passing (there was some reason for pointing out she's gay). I don't know if there are others in the group. I also don't know about the rest of the LGBTQ+ community. She hasn't mentioned any trans women have tried to join.

@FanGirlX

It’s hard to see how someone who has suffered infertility couldn’t immediately see why a child free group might have been a good thing.

Petty comment. Read the thread.

I have read the thread. Earlier you said “I hadn't considered that the group bonded over their childless / child free experience though. That puts a different perspective on it”.

It’s surprising to me that someone who has been through infertility themselves would have not realised this.

what is the group's line on people who have deceased children?

Obviously I don't know about the group in the OP but it would seem harsh to exclude them as they might be seeking a safe space away from painful reminders such as people talking about their children's milestones.

@aSofaNearYou

Perhaps, just perhaps some people don’t particularly like being put on hold while others ‘rein in’ their friendships and then being expected to be available and willing to be picked up again when the parent no longer wants to ‘rein in’ the friendship? That sounds very much like being used to me.

Tbh I don't think many parents do this because they want to, they do it because they can't find the time/childcare, and it's often very sad for them.

I have very often seen people on various threads here suggest lying about dc being sick as a means of getting out of a previously agreed social engagement.

I'm not being harsh to everyone. Just those who have dropped in, either without reading the earlier posts or who disagree with the earlier posts, to post that parents should be allowed to join. That my sister set up the group because she is bitter and wants revenge on parents.

It's not a bad thing to comment in good faith about your OP without having read every single other comment, people are doing that and then being met with instant hostility, which is quite hypocritical given you yourself thought similar to them less than 24 hours ago and you invited people to discuss that.

And yes, you have been snappy on a number of occasions to people that have acknowledged there is nothing wrong with setting up a child free group.

*FFS. Some people on here need to learn things work both ways in life. I don't think it's a case that you have used your friends.... life changes and a lot of mums get depressed in the early stages!

Mums miss out too especially if your a young mum... someone child free won't always want to be friends with you when you have a screaming baby whilst having a coffee... maybe they don't have childcare for a night out? Maybe that size 10 dress doesn't fit the same after having a baby.. lots of reasons friendships fade once you become a mum... its not as black and white as someone putting you on hold though.

That statement alone shows some can't relate*

Ah yes, because the childfree are all about nights out in their slinky size 10 dresses.

There are many, many ways to maintain friendships in difficult circumstances. Try relating a little and you might think of them.

People generally do not realise that the impact making a decision to have children will have on your life

Oh I think plenty people do realise the impact actually, and are therefore happily childfree! It’s rather naive, to put it mildly, to think a child will not have a big impact on your life.

@sammylady37

People generally do not realise that the impact making a decision to have children will have on your life

Oh I think plenty people do realise the impact actually, and are therefore happily childfree! It’s rather naive, to put it mildly, to think a child will not have a big impact on your life.

I totally disagree that anyone could know every impact beforehand. Child free people might tell themselves that but they can't. Simple as.

If they did then they wouldn't be so scathing on how their friends act when they have children, and how they become 'unreliable friends' most often not by choice.

I have already said I had no idea, call me naive all you want, I have two children, I didn't realise how hard having two would be either until the second one arrived either.

It's not a bad thing to comment in good faith about your OP without having read every single other comment,

It is if you don't bother reading the OP's updates. When a thread is too long for you to be bothered to read every single reply, at least just click on the 'see all' button of the OP to check for updates and possible extra info.

OP was good enough and open-minded enough to take on board the comments in the early part of the thread. That's a good thing. Yet posters are criticising her for doing so? Mumsnet really is a place where you can't win.

i totally disagree that anyone could know every impact beforehand. Child free people might tell themselves that but they can't. Simple as

Stop moving the goalposts. I never said that childfree people know every impact that having a child will have on their life. You made the comment that people generally don’t realise the impact… and I pointed out that childfree people very often do realise this and that’s exactly why they remain childfree. They don’t want their life impacted to the extent it would be. You’re the one who said you adamantly thought having children wouldn’t change your life in the least. I find that bizarre. How could you possibly think having a child wouldn’t change your life? I mean, why did you bother having them if you thought your life wouldn’t change in the least?

@sammylady37

People generally do not realise that the impact making a decision to have children will have on your life

Oh I think plenty people do realise the impact actually, and are therefore happily childfree! It’s rather naive, to put it mildly, to think a child will not have a big impact on your life.

Exactly @sammylady37. People do realise the impact having a child has on people which is exactly why they want a space for child free people because they recognise the difference in life experience between those with children and those without children.

This group could be providing a safe place for people who are having trouble accepting they are unable to have children - I know it is very hard for these women to be around children at certain points in their journey. To be guaranteed a group that they can go to without someone else bringing or mentioning their children could make the world of difference to these women.
Yes the woman should be asked not to return and well done to your sister for starting it

@saraclara

It's not a bad thing to comment in good faith about your OP without having read every single other comment,

It is if you don't bother reading the OP's updates. When a thread is too long for you to be bothered to read every single reply, at least just click on the 'see all' button of the OP to check for updates and possible extra info.

OP was good enough and open-minded enough to take on board the comments in the early part of the thread. That's a good thing. Yet posters are criticising her for doing so? Mumsnet really is a place where you can't win.

Thanks @saraclara

I think I was set straight at the beginning of the thread. Most posters set me straight in a nice way. I had been a bit obtuse towards my sister and I feel bad about that.

I've just got frustrated with posters maintaining that parents have a right to attend a child free people's meet up, despite the compelling arguments as to why they shouldn't. Then, even more frustrated with posters saying that my sister is bitter and has set up her group to get revenge on parents, which I really don't think is the case.

@saraclara

It's not a bad thing to comment in good faith about your OP without having read every single other comment,

It is if you don't bother reading the OP's updates. When a thread is too long for you to be bothered to read every single reply, at least just click on the 'see all' button of the OP to check for updates and possible extra info.

OP was good enough and open-minded enough to take on board the comments in the early part of the thread. That's a good thing. Yet posters are criticising her for doing so? Mumsnet really is a place where you can't win.

I don't think it's praise worthy to immediately lose sight of the fact that you had certain views a day ago and hypocritically jump to negative conclusions about anyone that has those thoughts today, no.

I’m sitting on the fence for this one.

Mumsnet has it’s fair share of posters who don’t have children and it’s not somewhere I’d particularly gravitate to myself if I was childless , but then I can see there are so many other threads to read rather than just the parenting ones i tend to think it works anyway?

I suppose I just feel a bit sorry for these new members who are going to be blocked. But I understand why the group feels unsettled about it.

@bringbacksideburns

I’m sitting on the fence for this one.

Mumsnet has it’s fair share of posters who don’t have children and it’s not somewhere I’d particularly gravitate to myself if I was childless , but then I can see there are so many other threads to read rather than just the parenting ones i tend to think it works anyway?

I suppose I just feel a bit sorry for these new members who are going to be blocked. But I understand why the group feels unsettled about it.

You may not be aware but Mumsnet has a very active Infertility board. Many of us were drawn to that, and then stuck around.

So many things to respond to on this thread but:

• infertility affects people to different degrees. For some it is a whole life altering sadness, for others a “bad but okay” And then there are those on either side for who chose not to. For whatever reason.

• I doubt it is bitterness but a desire for an environment in which the question never simply arises. I feel very sorry for the divorced woman in her 40s but, equally, her experiences form part of her and that may cause pain to the people in the group who may be trying to escape precisely that.

• this isn’t about stereotyping parents. A person who is “unreliable” because they are parenting is doing absolute what they need to (no judgment) but every time they do, boom they are bringing unpleasant and unwelcome reminders of what others really don’t wish to think about.

As you may gather, I do not have children. I love my friends’ children, I want to hear all about them and I am glad my world is bigger and broader with them in it. But that is solely me and certainly not everyone and a space for women that focuses on something so fundamental should be respected.

As a side note I agree with its many others, it sounds highly likely it was some confusion over wording.

@bringbacksideburns

I’m sitting on the fence for this one.

Mumsnet has it’s fair share of posters who don’t have children and it’s not somewhere I’d particularly gravitate to myself if I was childless , but then I can see there are so many other threads to read rather than just the parenting ones i tend to think it works anyway?

I suppose I just feel a bit sorry for these new members who are going to be blocked. But I understand why the group feels unsettled about it.

Mumsnet is a very active message board though with a variety of different forums, it also comes up often if you Google a random question and so I absolutely see why people use it. Most threads I read and post on aren't to do with children particularly, but hobbies, news, advice, and the style boards. It also doesn't really matter on here as people can avoid clicking on threads, hide them, and only read stuff you want to. In person there's no control over what others say and you have to listen to, which of course in every day life is the way it is- but having a group and a space free of that sounds bloody amazing and I can see why they want to protect that. I wouldn't feel sorry for the others, they can set up their own group if they want to.

We were chatting about this on my dog walk today (albeit in an abstract way)
We walk one Sunday a month, it's called Spaniel Sunday. We all have spaniels. I asked if when my old boy is no longer would I still be able to come if I got a greyhound instead of a spaniel.
It was agreed that I could still organise walks with them but no, on Spaniel Sunday I couldn't come with a greyhound, otherwise it would just be another group dog walk rather than a spaniel walk.