Parents are unreliable friends?

[FanGirlX]

My sister is 45, she was unable to have children due to infertility. Lovely sister, great auntie,

She has been running a group for child free people for about 5 years. They do hiking, camping, trips away, theatre, cinema, dinners. She has always said that it's difficult being childless from mid to late 30s onwards because most of your friends start to have children and are no longer free to socialise. So that's why she set up the group on meet-up, has made loads of friends and has a great time.

She told me today that there has been an influx of mid 40s women into the group, who have children in their teens. The group have voted to remove anyone who joins and turns out to have children, no matter how old the children are, reasons being:

The group is advertised as being for child free people

Parents trade in their friendships and social life for children, that's a choice they make but they can't expect to waltz into a ready made friends and activity group, once those children grow up develop their own social lives

Parents are unreliable friends

I told her that I can see why women whose children are growing up join - they've spent the last 15 years, or so, tending to their children and now they feel lonely now the kids are old enough not to need them. They don't have childcare responsibilities in the same way that they did when the children were younger. They see the group out doing fun things and think they'd like to join and have fun too. She said that she felt lonely in her 30s as her friends basically left her out because she couldn't have children, so she doesn't see why she should provide a social scene for mothers.

Is there really such a barrier between parents and non parents?

@FanGirlX

But the stuff about excluding mothers as revenge for feeling left out is very bitter.

Revenge? I took it as a reaction to being excluded from parent groups. Should she have stayed in and self flagellated because she's infertile?

OP your responses on this thread are really strange. You opened this up as a discussion and seemed to struggle to understand your sister's POV yourself, but as soon as anyone disagreed with you you became highly defensive of any criticism and seem to think there is no valid criticism of her at all.

Most people have agreed with her, I'm not seeing why you feel like this thread has been really harsh and driven you to agreeing with her.

There are perfectly valid reasons to want a childless only group, but she has explained it to you in a way that DOES come across as a bit bitter. She hasn't said anything about having more in common with childless women, for example, at least not from how you've described it, and even though you pointed out that mothers of teenagers and grown up children are unlikely to be reliable, her response was simply that she felt left out by her parent friends in her 30s so doesn't feel she should include them now. Like it or not, that DOES come across as bitter. Perhaps she didn't express herself well or perhaps you have misrepresented her, but people are responding from what you've said and you seem quite defensive about that.

Yep I'm with your sister. For a million reasons but in summary: It's a lifestyle - either by choice or by infertility.

For any lifestyle club you expect members to be part of the lifestyle. This is a childfree lifestyle anyone with children is not part of their lifestyle, no matter how old the kids are.

Let the childfree have their moments where they - quite rightly - can bask in the freedom their fate or decision took them. Let them have their moments where they can say to one another from a place of mutual understanding - gosh we'd never be able to do/afford this if we had kids etc etc. Let them have their own smug camaraderie - which they are absolutely entitled to.

Let childless people have their own space for once.

I say all this as a mother. I do not begrudge childfree people their own space, clubs, and ability to find likeminded people. I think it's very healthy and no doubt will provide them with much fulfilment.

She's entitled to be bitter. It would be unrealistic to expect anyone not to be when they've felt left out of everything, started their own group so they could feel a bit more normal, and then the very people who'd been making her feel excluded suddenly want to join her group. There's a damn good reason why she set up the group in the first place.

Perhaps, just perhaps some people don’t particularly like being put on hold while others ‘rein in’ their friendships and then being expected to be available and willing to be picked up again when the parent no longer wants to ‘rein in’ the friendship? That sounds very much like being used to me.

Tbh I don't think many parents do this because they want to, they do it because they can't find the time/childcare, and it's often very sad for them.

@aSofaNearYou

I can't be bothered explaining rewriting my earlier responses just for you. They are all at the beginning of the thread.

what is the group's line on people who have deceased children? who have experienced parenthood but have no living children? (just curious, I agree that people with living children of any age shouldn't be in the group)

[quote FanGirlX]@aSofaNearYou

I can't be bothered explaining rewriting my earlier responses just for you. They are all at the beginning of the thread.[/quote]
Yes, I've read them all, and still very confused as to why you are being ap defensive. You started this thread because you weren't sure if you agreed with her, and now seem really annoyed that anyone else does, or even questions her at all.

You're doing it here. Why so rude?

Tbh I don't think many parents do this because they want to, they do it because they can't find the time/childcare, and it's often very sad for them.

That doesn't change the harsh reality for those friends on the receiving end of a friend no longer having time for them, does it?

You sound like another one who seems to think my sister should have meekly accepted being infertile makes her inferior. You seem to find the fact that she has made an active and interesting life for herself (and in the process, helped other women, in the same situation as her, do the same) quite threatening. I wonder how many parents had children because they didn't want to end up alone and are now feeling disturbed at the idea of a group of childfree women leading happy and successful lives.

Yes, I've read them all, and still very confused as to why you are being ap defensive.

I asked a question and received some early responses which made me see things with a different perspective. I have gone on to be shocked at the entitlement of some parents posting on here. That has made me see, even more clearly, why my sister and other women like her, both need and have a right to their own space.

@tamarinda

what is the group's line on people who have deceased children? who have experienced parenthood but have no living children? (just curious, I agree that people with living children of any age shouldn't be in the group)

Sorry, no idea. Can ask next time I speak to her.

@tamarinda

what is the group's line on people who have deceased children? who have experienced parenthood but have no living children? (just curious, I agree that people with living children of any age shouldn't be in the group)

Would those people really want to join the group? I'm sure there must be some more appropriate groups to join where they can meet people with shared experiences.

@sammylady37

Parents do not trade in their friendships and social lives for children. They may be reined in for a few years, but once those children are adults, wtf difference does it make to adults and their friendships?

Perhaps, just perhaps some people don’t particularly like being put on hold while others ‘rein in’ their friendships and then being expected to be available and willing to be picked up again when the parent no longer wants to ‘rein in’ the friendship? That sounds very much like being used to me.

FFS. Some people on here need to learn things work both ways in life. I don't think it's a case that you have used your friends.... life changes and a lot of mums get depressed in the early stages!

Mums miss out too especially if your a young mum... someone child free won't always want to be friends with you when you have a screaming baby whilst having a coffee... maybe they don't have childcare for a night out? Maybe that size 10 dress doesn't fit the same after having a baby.. lots of reasons friendships fade once you become a mum... its not as black and white as someone putting you on hold though.

That statement alone shows some can't relate.

@tectonicplates I agree, I just thought having deceased children must be less common than being totally childless? so maybe, with this group being well-established and large (?), it would be easier for them to socialise with people who aren't always talking about parenting

@FanGirlX

Yes, I've read them all, and still very confused as to why you are being ap defensive.

I asked a question and received some early responses which made me see things with a different perspective. I have gone on to be shocked at the entitlement of some parents posting on here. That has made me see, even more clearly, why my sister and other women like her, both need and have a right to their own space.

Yes but you're also being very snappy to later posters that haven't displayed any entitlement and are just having similarly critical thoughts to what you said in your OP.

@aSofaNearYou

Perhaps, just perhaps some people don’t particularly like being put on hold while others ‘rein in’ their friendships and then being expected to be available and willing to be picked up again when the parent no longer wants to ‘rein in’ the friendship? That sounds very much like being used to me.

Tbh I don't think many parents do this because they want to, they do it because they can't find the time/childcare, and it's often very sad for them.

Yes I would agree that it isn't done on purpose. People generally do not realise that the impact making a decision to have children will have on your life.

When I was pregnant I was positive that it would not change my life in the least. They would fit into my life, I would still do all of the things I did before and I most certainly wouldn't talk about my baby all the time! No way. I even registered for an online language course for during maternity leave, so sure was I that I was in no way going to be tied down by a baby!

Well of course the reality was very different. I was of exhausted, I hardly had time to wash my hair never mind go out and meet anyone. I was petrified to take my baby anywhere and also petrefied to leave him. Then of course I was back to work and juggling everything under the sun. Then I had a second and had the joy of PND and post natal OCD.

All of this with a 50:50 coparent. How do people do it on their own or with a lazy partner? I don't know.

So yes my friendships suffered but it was never my intention, it just happened.

@FanGirlX

Tbh I don't think many parents do this because they want to, they do it because they can't find the time/childcare, and it's often very sad for them.

That doesn't change the harsh reality for those friends on the receiving end of a friend no longer having time for them, does it?

You sound like another one who seems to think my sister should have meekly accepted being infertile makes her inferior. You seem to find the fact that she has made an active and interesting life for herself (and in the process, helped other women, in the same situation as her, do the same) quite threatening. I wonder how many parents had children because they didn't want to end up alone and are now feeling disturbed at the idea of a group of childfree women leading happy and successful lives.

Look, I'm on your side OP but this pretence that you're 'asking for your sister' is wearing very thin as the thread goes on...

@FanGirlX

Tbh I don't think many parents do this because they want to, they do it because they can't find the time/childcare, and it's often very sad for them.

That doesn't change the harsh reality for those friends on the receiving end of a friend no longer having time for them, does it?

You sound like another one who seems to think my sister should have meekly accepted being infertile makes her inferior. You seem to find the fact that she has made an active and interesting life for herself (and in the process, helped other women, in the same situation as her, do the same) quite threatening. I wonder how many parents had children because they didn't want to end up alone and are now feeling disturbed at the idea of a group of childfree women leading happy and successful lives.

No, I don't think any of that, I think it's a perfectly valid thing to set up, but it is also valid to say that what she said came across as petty.

It's not the same but there was an article in the news over Christmas about a black hiking group. It was created specifically to encourage black people to enjoy hiking, country walks etc because sometimes they felt othered and unwelcomed in other groups but people were moaning about it being exclusionary and racist, whereas I would just think "Ok that groups not for me, I'll join x one instead."

Oh don't even get me started about that one. There are already thousands of walking groups that white people can join, and people start making a fuss about the one group they can't join, even though they have thousands of other choices available.

Just like how there are thousands of parents groups that parents can join, but there's always going to be someone who insists on joining the non-parents group because otherwise it's unfair and exclusionary. Even though parents have plenty of other groups set up for them.

Yes but you're also being very snappy to later posters that haven't displayed any entitlement and are just having similarly critical thoughts to what you said in your OP.

And if those posters had read the thread they would have realised that I had changed my perspective due to what earlier posters had explained to me.

I disagree with you - a lot of the parents on this thread are displaying entitlement because they can't understand why parents aren't allowed to gate crash a group for non parents. That's being entitled.

Look, I'm on your side OP but this pretence that you're 'asking for your sister' is wearing very thin as the thread goes on...

I've been on mumsnet for years, firstly on the infertility threads then on the parenting threads (amongst others). I'm just getting pissed off at some of these responses.

I think it sounds like a wonderful group and is probably a wonderful space for lots of women.

Women who have kids, even adult ones should not be joining. It's bizarre! I think your sister should suggest that the women with children should form their own new group for women with children who have left home. I can't get over the fact that some women ever thought it was ok to join such a group! It's obvious that sometimes the topic of infertility would be discussed, and no one wants to have to then have to listen to someone banging on about how hard it is looking after kids or whatever. It's merging into a different kind of group. They need their own group.

I think the LGBTQ+ question is about the T. Not the L. Something for your sister to consider perhaps. But what a childless trans-woman will not have is children.

LGBTQ+ is NEVER about the L - always the T and sometimes the Q+.

I’d be interested if I lived in NW. I hope your sister doesn’t come under any pressure to make it mixed-sex.

The group is for child free people so trans identities will be irrelevant.

*And if those posters had read the thread they would have realised that I had changed my perspective due to what earlier posters had explained to me.

I disagree with you - a lot of the parents on this thread are displaying entitlement because they can't understand why parents aren't allowed to gate crash a group for non parents. That's being entitled.*

YOU were saying that in your opening post. It's a bit of an odd thing to do to turn on any posters who then agree with you, just because you've had your mind changed by some other more impassioned people. Surely you can understand the POVs of the people who've agreed with what you thought when you made the thread. Were you motivated by entitlement when that is what you thought too?

I've been on mumsnet for years, firstly on the infertility threads then on the parenting threads (amongst others)
It’s hard to see how someone who has suffered infertility couldn’t immediately see why a child free group might have been a good thing.