Parents are unreliable friends?

[FanGirlX]

My sister is 45, she was unable to have children due to infertility. Lovely sister, great auntie,

She has been running a group for child free people for about 5 years. They do hiking, camping, trips away, theatre, cinema, dinners. She has always said that it's difficult being childless from mid to late 30s onwards because most of your friends start to have children and are no longer free to socialise. So that's why she set up the group on meet-up, has made loads of friends and has a great time.

She told me today that there has been an influx of mid 40s women into the group, who have children in their teens. The group have voted to remove anyone who joins and turns out to have children, no matter how old the children are, reasons being:

The group is advertised as being for child free people

Parents trade in their friendships and social life for children, that's a choice they make but they can't expect to waltz into a ready made friends and activity group, once those children grow up develop their own social lives

Parents are unreliable friends

I told her that I can see why women whose children are growing up join - they've spent the last 15 years, or so, tending to their children and now they feel lonely now the kids are old enough not to need them. They don't have childcare responsibilities in the same way that they did when the children were younger. They see the group out doing fun things and think they'd like to join and have fun too. She said that she felt lonely in her 30s as her friends basically left her out because she couldn't have children, so she doesn't see why she should provide a social scene for mothers.

Is there really such a barrier between parents and non parents?

this whole community I can't enter.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. So my sister and her friends have formed their own community in response to being excluded from the majority community.

Thanks to the posters who have opened my mind and done it kindly .

This makes me think of those people who say 'I'm practically a single parent, my DH is away so much for work'. Except he's away earning and contributing money to the family and is available to talk to most evenings or weekends and contribute to decisions.

Single parents wouldn't be too impressed if those types turned up to their groups, I imagine.

@AtrociousCircumstance

Why on earth is this confusing for you?

It’s a group for women without children. End of story.

This...end of...she sounds judgemental and actually quite sad x

I’m with your sister on this. I think Westenra put it brilliantly.
I have teen DD myself but she has additional needs which means my parenting experience is very different, and I know too well about this whole community I can’t enter just from the different angle. I also have infertility so can relate to lonely 30s years (DD was a result of IVF eventually).
I think parents who have joined the group are CFs, child-free means child-free all your life not when it suits you.

My best friend is child free due to infertility. She says she has dealt with not having children, come to terms with it, learning to enjoy a different life. What has thrown her now is grand children, we are all beginning to have babies in our lives again, so I agree to keeping it without parents

@Ducksurprise

My best friend is child free due to infertility. She says she has dealt with not having children, come to terms with it, learning to enjoy a different life. What has thrown her now is grand children, we are all beginning to have babies in our lives again, so I agree to keeping it without parents

I can totally understand that. It must be like grief starting all over again.

@FanGirlX

this whole community I can't enter.

I think you've hit the nail on the head here. So my sister and her friends have formed their own community in response to being excluded from the majority community.

Thanks to the posters who have opened my mind and done it kindly .

This sums it up perfectly.

I am childless by choice. Parents don't realise how boring it can be to hear about their children endlessly. I also get pity for not having children. I have been listening to my friends complaining they have no time for themselves, no money. The children are stressful ect. Then they pity me, my Dsis is bad for this. I have time for me, hobbies and money. I have a great life. I don't want their pity thanks.

My friend is childless not by choice. She tried for years to have a child. She will smile and look like she enjoys hearing about the children. She does enjoying spending time with children. But I know behind the smiles she is in pain. I know every time someone asks her if she's got kids or why not she hurts.

My other friend lost her only pregnancy because her ex beat it out of her. she was never able to conceive again. She does not tell people this. She claims she is childfree by choice. But she hurts every time someone asks when she is going to have a child.

The thing about some people is they feel they have a right to ask why you don't have children. Like they have some right to know. The pity at being childless really makes my blood boil. I suppose it seems so superior. So yes a place just for childless people would be great for me and my friends. Having a parent in the group would change the dynamic completely.

I think as she is entering the next stage of her life its pretty sensible to have strong friends who don't have children if you are childfree. I'd imagine as you reach 50/60s and start thinking about life after work your experience if entirely different to those who have grown up children who will potentially head straight back in to grandchildren commitments and she might find herself last of the priority list again.

[quote bonetiredwithtwins]@SallyGoLucky

It's really really not the same as your analogy

A mums and tots class is a specific activity to socialise mums and babies. Bit like you wouldn't join a cycling club if you didn't have a bike - you wouldn't join a mums and babies group without the baby

The sisters group is for lonely people to make friends - you can be lonely with and without children

however It would be interesting to know the exact wording of the group name [/quote]
No, the sister’s group is for people who don’t have children. So, if people have children, the group isn’t for them. This isn’t a difficult concept to grasp.

There does seem to be some confusion out there regarding the term ‘child free’. I did a bit of Googling and found other child free groups complaining that some applicants seem to think it means ‘no current childcare responsibilities’. Probably best to hammer it home in their FB description as ‘for those who have never had children’ (or whatever they see fit - maybe even link to local empty nester groups if they are feeling particularly generous, but they shouldn’t have to). Imagine being the child of a parent who started describing themselves as ‘child free’ as soon as they left the family home though!

I think that your sister is completely in the right, but that if this is happening regularly they need to look at the group description and make it clearer - people can really need this sort of stuff hammering home! Though the irony is that the people who are most likely to decide they're a special exception to the group's requirement are the last people you want in it, but they're also likely to be the most obtuse about it.

Your sister's group sounds lovely and the rationale for it being for people with no children is completely reasonable and doesn't need justifying - and they don't need to be 'nice' about it and let in people who don't qualify.

I agree that parents do have a tendency to get absorbed in their kids and conversation always comes back to them, I know I'm boring as fuck these days.

The parents of older kids should consider starting a group and let the original group have their own space that works for them.

I think she is being fair. The group is for a group of people with shared experiences. The w people coming in can not understand the choices that have been made, or choices that have been taken away from the group members. She has every right to deny membership to those who do not have their shared experience. These other women can start their own group.

Her circus. Her monkeys. FWIW I agree with her.

I agree that parents do have a tendency to get absorbed in their kids and conversation always comes back to them, I know I'm boring as fuck these days.

Me too. I think it is perfectly reasonable for women who don't have children to want a social group who are guaranteed not to end up talking about their children. I get annoyed with myself for doing it so god knows how tedious it is for others.

I don't think she should justify it by saying it's because non-parents are more reliable or that parents talk too much about children or whatever - you'll just get people insisting that this isn't true for them and so they should be an exception, whether or not it's true. She doesn't need a 'reason'; it's a group for people who aren't parents so people who aren't parents can't join, any more than someone without children should join a parenting group even if they really like children, have a lot of nieces and nephews, or whatever. They don't fit the basic criteria.

I totally see her point.

Yes people have other commitments like caring for elderly etc that could make them unreliable, but that is true of everyone. Removing one source of unreliability - children - is still making that less likely, so she is perfectly justified in saying that she finds parents might be less reliable. And I too have found that friends with older children, even late teens, still end up changing plans. Children need driving somewhere suddenly, or they need to use the car, or they have an essay crisis, or there's a sudden open-day that parents want to go to, or they want a last family day out, etc. Even at university - there are surprise visits home, children needing support remotely, children planning visits or parents planning visits, etc.

And besides, unreliability was only one of several reasons for excluding people with children.

People with adult children have still had a very different experience in life - and it probably continues. They might still have Christmas with children and their families, and have busy plans to make, whereas childless people might feel much more isolated. They are still interested in their children's jobs, further education, careers, house-buying plans, relationships, grandchildren. They visit them, they plan holidays together, they look after grandchildren, they worry about them, they deal with them coming home when things go wrong, they may rely on them for help that they need at times - it's just a very different world still.

And yes, parents often do de-prioritise their friends when they have small children. Sometimes there is no choice, but other times, there really is. My friends who had small children didn't ever prioritise me when they could have sometimes. They didn't choose to include me when they could have sometimes. Lots of things were still choices, even though I know that emergencies crop up, that time is limited, that energy is limited, that childcare is needed, etc. There are other times, when choices could be made if someone was really important to you. And in many cases, once small children came along, friends were treated as a bit expendible. That doesn't mean I want to punish people for it. But you know you are not really important to anyone in the same way. And it can be nice to share that experience with other people, so there can be a degree of bonding over that.

It can be a bit boring to listen to parents rattling on about the achievements of their little darlings and the more that join the group the more likely these kind of conversations are going to start dominating proceedings. I know a couple of people who always bring everything back to their children. I don't think they realise they do it but its deathly dull and a complete conversation stopper. It does not stop just because the kids have left home.

I'm childfree by choice and I can see the attraction of a group exclusively for childfree women. So many conversations with parents drift off into talking about the children, even if they're older children, and as a childfree person I have nothing really to contribute. I imagine hearing someone yak on about their child's GCSE choices might be boring for another parent, in fairness, but at least you have a trade-off.

If they're adult children, it's possible that grandchildren might come along, and the cycle would start again.

It's always refreshing to meet a childfree/childless person - you have that 'aaah' feeling because you know the conversation isn't going to turn to their children.

Is the group membership properly explained? I think childless and child free mean very different things. Childless means never having had children. Child free means not having any childcare responsibilities, whether that is because the children have grown up, or another reason.

@FanGirlX

One example she mentioned, of a woman who they plan to remove, is someone who in her late 40s, divorced, children have left home and she lives alone. The woman has been along to a few outings and then mentioned to other group members that she had adult children living away from home. I found it surprising that are going to remove her because she's unlikely to be unreliable due to childcare.

I hadn't considered that the group bonded over their childless / child free experience though. That puts a different perspective on it.

To me that's harsh.

Your sister sounds bitter. Mean to exclude a woman who lives alone and is trying to make friends. She has no caring responsibilities and not all women bang on about their kids, get out family photos at every opportunity or hanker after grandkids.

Your sister sounds bitter. Mean to exclude a woman who lives alone and is trying to make friends. She has no caring responsibilities and not all women bang on about their kids, get out family photos at every opportunity or hanker after grandkids.*

no, but not all women with children will either. But some will. And if the group is set up for those without children, then that's their right.

People with adult chidlren still have a different experience of the world, and may have different opportunities available to them, different worries etc., and some of that will eventually be part of friendships.

If people choose to have a child-free group, then really that's their choice, and other people can set up similar groups elsewhere. The sister doesn't have a duty to provide for anyone who is lonely. She is just setting something up because she wants to. There is a very different experience of not having any children at all, and that can be very hard throughout life, not just when the children are small or at home ,and I can see why people want to bond over that.

Childless means never having had children. Child free means not having any childcare responsibilities, whether that is because the children have grown up, or another reason.

I don't use 'childfree' like that. I describe myself as 'childfree' because it was my choice not to have children - my experience is different from someone who is childless, i.e. wanted to have them but couldn't.

I wouldn't expect someone who called themselves 'childfree' to be a parent of adult children.

(Just wondering how long it is before we get a poster on the thread asking why we childfree folk are on Mumsnet )