Parents are unreliable friends?

[FanGirlX]

My sister is 45, she was unable to have children due to infertility. Lovely sister, great auntie,

She has been running a group for child free people for about 5 years. They do hiking, camping, trips away, theatre, cinema, dinners. She has always said that it's difficult being childless from mid to late 30s onwards because most of your friends start to have children and are no longer free to socialise. So that's why she set up the group on meet-up, has made loads of friends and has a great time.

She told me today that there has been an influx of mid 40s women into the group, who have children in their teens. The group have voted to remove anyone who joins and turns out to have children, no matter how old the children are, reasons being:

The group is advertised as being for child free people

Parents trade in their friendships and social life for children, that's a choice they make but they can't expect to waltz into a ready made friends and activity group, once those children grow up develop their own social lives

Parents are unreliable friends

I told her that I can see why women whose children are growing up join - they've spent the last 15 years, or so, tending to their children and now they feel lonely now the kids are old enough not to need them. They don't have childcare responsibilities in the same way that they did when the children were younger. They see the group out doing fun things and think they'd like to join and have fun too. She said that she felt lonely in her 30s as her friends basically left her out because she couldn't have children, so she doesn't see why she should provide a social scene for mothers.

Is there really such a barrier between parents and non parents?

I do wonder how the group would handle LGBTQ + though

I'm aware of one gay woman in the group.

My understanding is that the group is for women who don't have children, for whatever reason. As others posters have pointed out, there are plenty of groups for mothers (the shared interest being children). My sister's group is for women who don't have children.

I'm a parent myself and I'm taken aback by some of the twattish comments by parents on this thread. I can completely see why my sister set up this group and wants to maintain it for child free people. So thanks for demonstrating that.

I think it’s lovely that your sister created a safe space for child-free women. Having suffered with infertility for years, the hardest part was feeling like I was on the outside looking in to a world that resolves around children. Eventually meeting people in the same situation made me feel less alone - but this was through infertility support groups, either online or in real life, and a social group to do normal things would have been brilliant. So I feel that there is definitely a place for such groups.

Don’t understand the LGB query: the group is for women without DC. sexuality is irrelevant.

Presume the group organiser(s) would decide the T should the situation arise.

Your sister has a valid point to some degree but I think she's taking it way too far by not allowing people from all walks of life to join. Perhaps someone fell pregnant by accident and choose to keep the baby but didn't really want it?

When I had my baby non of my friends had babies and one of them doesn't now. I didn't feel left out but I did feel frustrated that they couldn't relate to me when I was stressed as they didn't have a child.

Life's too short to limit or out people into a basket. Your sister is being a bit bitter.

@Piggyk2

Your sister has a valid point to some degree but I think she's taking it way too far by not allowing people from all walks of life to join. Perhaps someone fell pregnant by accident and choose to keep the baby but didn't really want it?

When I had my baby non of my friends had babies and one of them doesn't now. I didn't feel left out but I did feel frustrated that they couldn't relate to me when I was stressed as they didn't have a child.

Life's too short to limit or out people into a basket. Your sister is being a bit bitter.

Your own experience shows exactly why this group should enforce the child free rule! You say yourself your friends couldn’t relate to you when they didn’t have children. This is the same- people with children have different life experiences than people who’ve never had children.

I don't think I'd like your sister all that much.

Parents do not trade in their friendships and social lives for children. They may be reined in for a few years, but once those children are adults, wtf difference does it make to adults and their friendships?

I shall be interested to see how the group develops in a few years' time when some of them start to have elderly or frail parents who need their attention. Will they become 'unreliable friends' and have to leave the group.

I can totally see your sister’s point-people with kids like to chat about them as they are such a big part of their life. This can be a bit tiresome if you dont have kids. I’m sure she is friends with folk with kids but for the purpose of the group I can see the benefit of keeping it separate.

I don't think I'd like your sister all that much.

😂😂😂

What relevance does your likes and dislikes in a person have here?

@eagerlywaitingfor

I don't think I'd like your sister all that much.

Parents do not trade in their friendships and social lives for children. They may be reined in for a few years, but once those children are adults, wtf difference does it make to adults and their friendships?

I shall be interested to see how the group develops in a few years' time when some of them start to have elderly or frail parents who need their attention. Will they become 'unreliable friends' and have to leave the group.

I have a feeling that would be mutual.

Thanks for demonstrating why this group should exist. I'm 100% backing my sister.

@eagerlywaitingfor

I don't think I'd like your sister all that much.

Parents do not trade in their friendships and social lives for children. They may be reined in for a few years, but once those children are adults, wtf difference does it make to adults and their friendships?

I shall be interested to see how the group develops in a few years' time when some of them start to have elderly or frail parents who need their attention. Will they become 'unreliable friends' and have to leave the group.

I can't help but wonder if reactions like this stem from a guilty conscious of knowing you've been a shitty friend to those in your life who don't have kids. With such a narrow minded view on this situation, I'd say I'm not far off the mark.

Also even if a childless person does partake in such a group it doesn't mean they never spend any other time with people that do have children. There is a time and a place for both.

Life's too short to limit or out people into a basket

It's unlikely the women in the group spend much time in a childfree 'basket'. Childless women account for about one in five of the population. So the chances are that any other groups these women are members of (or populations generally such as work, neighbourhood, family) will include at least some mums.

I totally agree with your sister:

I hate the prevailing sentiment nowadays that everything has to be open and inclusive to everyone. No! We're allowed to have things that are just for the child free, just for mums, just for biological women, etc.

I think the LGBTQ+ question is about the T. Not the L. Something for your sister to consider perhaps. But what a childless trans-woman will not have is children.

I agree with pp that the phrase 'child free' will be causing confusion. It's quite a neologism. One that came about because 'childless' was seen as pitying and as implying that everyone really wanted children but some hadn't been able to. So 'child free (by choice)' was adopted to convey the positive choice not have children.

But many people who have children and won't have given ways of defining people who don't, very much thought, will just think of it as meaning 'child free time'.

I think you're sister's group is a lovely idea. It's a shame when people push themselves into groups where they are not really wanted.
I wonder if it's clear child free is actually child less. I wonder because I have adult children so I consider myself child free in the sense of not being responsible for little ones and the necessity of getting baby sitters.
Having said that, I enjoy the company of other empty nesters as we have certain things in common that others don't have.
Sometimes, it's really nice to have a group that's quite closed, and I'd 100% back your sister too

I have children, love my friends' children and hopefully am a reliable friend to those with and without children. BUT even I despair at some of my friends who cannot have a conversation without it coming back round to their children, every time. always been the same and continues to be even though they are now young adults. Of course I care about their children and am interested, but I don't necessarily want the majority of social meeting air time being taken up hearing every last detail of their kids.
So if I didn't have children, I think I would really appreciate a social space away from any discussion about children.

@EishetChayil

I totally agree with your sister:

I hate the prevailing sentiment nowadays that everything has to be open and inclusive to everyone. No! We're allowed to have things that are just for the child free, just for mums, just for biological women, etc.

Absolutely!

As someone who struggled with fertility before having precious DC I understand the need to be around other child free people. Even the mention of other people's children was sometimes painful when I could not have my own.

But the stuff about excluding mothers as revenge for feeling left out is very bitter.

I think good on your sister, first for setting it up and putting all the effort into the group to make it so successful, and then for consulting the members and listening to their wishes rather than bowing to pressure to be "nice."

There is a difference between childfree people and those with older children. Even if they don't see as much of their children as they would like, unless the family is very dysfunctional they usually have the security of knowing if they fell ill there is someone who would help them out, they will have somewhere to go at Christmas, etc. Whereas the childfree group could include members who desperately wanted children but were unable to have them for whatever reason, so to change what was previously a safe space, into yet another one with people happily chatting about their kids exam results/wedding/grandchildren/big family Christmas plans etc. in the one group they've found to escape all that, could be upsetting.

At the end of the day it's not like this group is the ONLY one out there. There is the WI, fb local groups, meet up, wild swimming groups, gym classes, etc. etc that these women could go to. Or they could put the effort in to starting their own group like your sister did.

It's not the same but there was an article in the news over Christmas about a black hiking group. It was created specifically to encourage black people to enjoy hiking, country walks etc because sometimes they felt othered and unwelcomed in other groups but people were moaning about it being exclusionary and racist, whereas I would just think "Ok that groups not for me, I'll join x one instead."

It seems to be a thing that whenever something is successfully created for x group with a specific direction, sooner or later it is always infiltrated by people who want to change it slightly rather thank putting in the work to create their own Y-focussed group. Good on your sister for saying no!

Your sister has a valid point to some degree but I think she's taking it way too far by not allowing people from all walks of life to join. Perhaps someone fell pregnant by accident and choose to keep the baby but didn't really want it?

Sorry, are you saying that having a baby you didn't want is the same thing as not having children?

But the stuff about excluding mothers as revenge for feeling left out is very bitter.

Revenge? I took it as a reaction to being excluded from parent groups. Should she have stayed in and self flagellated because she's infertile?

@MogsBestestFurball

As someone who struggled with fertility before having precious DC I understand the need to be around other child free people. Even the mention of other people's children was sometimes painful when I could not have my own.

But the stuff about excluding mothers as revenge for feeling left out is very bitter.

I don't think she's saying it's 'revenge', or that she's pleased if mothers are lonely when their children grow up - just that it isn't her problem to sort, in the same way as people with children didn't feel that her loneliness in her 30s was their problem to sort. Because it isn't, in both cases.

Hi OP. I'm on your sister's side, but I do wonder if the group needs to change the wording a bit, or add an extra sentence or two to make the rules clearer. Personally I would see child free as meaning never had children, but there are people in this thread who've misinterpreted it. I'm an adult, I live with my DH and my parents are enjoying their retirement and have a very active social life. I'd still be horrified if my mum described herself as child free - it would be like saying I don't exist! We still see each other every couple of weeks and do things for each other.

To everyone asking what the problem is: women without children are a minority group. By the time you get to get to age 30-40, most of your friends will have children. You really can feel like an outsider, or get frustrated with the constant talk about children, regardless of whether it's through bitterness or just not being interested. Even just scrolling through Facebook can be annoying when everyone's posting stuff about their family. And this is after years of putting up with inane, idiotic comments like "You'll change your mind when you're older" or "Well, you could always adopt".

Just let child free women have their own space. If there was any kind of group for women only, would you say "Oh what's the harm in letting a man join? He just wants to make friends". Would you join a group for disabled people even if you weren't disabled? Each minority group has its own issues and experiences, and just wants a chance to socialise with similar people so that they don't constantly feel left out.

As someone said above, if the empty nesters want to meet other empty nesters, they are welcome to start their own group instead of piggybacking on someone else's. It's really not rocket science.

I understand why some people who are not parents prefer the term 'childfree' to 'childless' because the second term can have an implication of something being missing. However 'childfree' is much more open to different interpretations. I can have a childfree time when the DC fly off with their Dad to visit family abroad, but I won't be childless.

So these women with adult children are probably joining in good faith, they are childfree because their children can look after themselves and live an independent life. The members can obviously vote to remove these women if that's what they want to do, but they need to tighten up the group description so that women are aware before they join that it's for women who do not, and have never had, children. Because no matter how kindly it's done some people are going to be upset about being kicked out of the group.

Parents do not trade in their friendships and social lives for children. They may be reined in for a few years, but once those children are adults, wtf difference does it make to adults and their friendships?

Perhaps, just perhaps some people don’t particularly like being put on hold while others ‘rein in’ their friendships and then being expected to be available and willing to be picked up again when the parent no longer wants to ‘rein in’ the friendship? That sounds very much like being used to me.