Dealt with a guy serving me in a shop who made me feel like shit, and later realised he was a wannabe PUA

[parchedjanuary]

I'm actually so angry about what happened in the shop that I currently am incapable of explaining it here!!!

Arghhhh!!!

I will try and write a more coherent post tomorrow.

Basically, a local shop that sells very specific items. I went in last week. The guy that owns the shop served me. He was very helpful.

I went in again a few days ago. A new employee was working and the owner wasn't there. The new guy was incredibly rude, didn't help me at all, but equally told me how pretty he thought I was, asked me way to many personal questions, which I was so shocked about I stupidly answered. Did constant negging followed by weirdo complements. Then being really nice and friendly. But equally unhelpful. I felt terrible, couldn't wait to get out, kept thinking wtf???

I got home and remembered the thread on MN about women being approached by men/boys practicing their PUA (pick up artist) game.... and looking into it a bit more, I think this might have been what he was practicing.

I'm still so angry I can't even express what happened!!!

I do intend to go back in to the shop and hopefully see the owner and tell him what his employee is up to when left alone.

Sorry this post makes no sense at all. I'm just so sad and angry about it!!!

I will attempt another post with a better explanation when I'm a bit more calm

@JinglingHellsBells

I'm trying to understand how he actually got into a conversation with you.

In most shops, unless you are asking for shoes to be brought out, or wanting to try on clothing, why is there any need for chat?

If it's just food, you just fill your basket and take it to the till.

If he was trying to talk to you and it felt inappropriate, couldn't you just say 'I want to pay for my shopping, now please. Will you sort the payment, thanks.'

And then just not talk back if he tries to talk to you?

What exactly were you shopping for that needed him to chat to you? Maybe ciggies or booze and stuff that's behind a counter?

I genuinely don't understand as I've not been in any shop for years where anyone talks to me! (Unless it's make up counters and I'm asking for help.)

Where I live and places I've lived in the past, it wouldn't be at all uncommon to have a chat with a shop worker. Sometimes, here in our village, where most of them know me, it's be quite common to have a long chat so long as no one else is waiting to be served! Also, many of us were conditioned when young to always be pleasant and polite, even if we shouldn't be. It's still my default setting at 61 and only in recent years have I learnt to show my more authoritative side and be firm with people who cross the line. Sometimes one has to show one's teeth a little bit but we aren't generally taught how to do that as girls. I did read about 20 years ago about how we women should stop worrying about being rude to men who make us feel uncomfortable. I was on my way to a night out in a usually safe area when a man approached me and put me straight on the alert. I snarled "Piss off or I'll get nasty!" at him! It worked- he pissed off. I was never taught to do it though, just remembered it from the article I'd read. We shouldn't blame young women nor girls if they've been conditioned never to be impolite, or are quiet by nature, but try to help them learn about boundary-setting and tell them that sometimes, rudeness actually IS the best policy!

I was feeling very sympathetic, but did wonder if he was the opposite of a PUA, more an introvert pushing himself too much.... but then you mentioned the personal alarm.... I cannot under any circumstances envisage why a strange man (or even nodding acquaintance) would be so interested In your alarm. I think your spot on. I'd be tempted to email the manager though as you have more time to rewrite/edit it until your happy then hit send.

I wonder if others have felt the same, check out peoples reviews or social media posts about it.... it might be interesting.

Does seem a dodgy area (neighbourhood watch or police nowhere?

All the best

@sheroku

Does anyone have any useful reposts up their sleeve?

I think one of the best responses is simply to ignore them. They're looking to get a reaction out of you so just looking bored or like you're not listening will annoy the hell out of them. Whenever men try to pester me I just say "I'm actually in a bit of a rush" and then walk away.

I think in the OP's situation, the guy in the shop was trying to open up more personal conversation. That was the goal. In the hope that the next time she came in, he could continue to talk to her in a more "friendly" /personal way, having established that they'd talked about subjects beyond the normal customer/shopkeeper relationship. So he was asking about her lanyard in the hope of getting her to apologise/explain. That way he would gain more personal information about her or talk to her in a more personal way beyond normal shop talk and could continue asking but Why would you do that... putting the obligation on someone who is polite and doesn't want to cause a scene to answer even if she's trying to shut it down. And then the answers, even shut down ones lead to "But why would you think that".

Its easy if you are well prepared but if something like that is sprung on you, its sometimes difficult to work out on your feet the right way to respond, especially if this is a place you go to reasonably regularly and you are there for help/service.

Even saying Fuck Off in those situations can feel like an over reaction and encourages them to start questioning/using the same language or being even more obnoxious. Especially if normal tactics would be to ignore/grey rock someone like this who was in the street. But this was in a shop and she needed to speak to a shopkeeper.
Now that I'm older I find it easier to spot these situations and say things like "I'm only here to buy an xyz. Or that's really none of your business.. or just turn on my heel and walk out.

I like the "I'm actually in a bit of a rush response."
But I appreciate in OP's case its easy to say that with hindsight... at the time she didn't know how invasive his conversation was going to become.

@fluffiphlox

Personally I wasn’t asking the OP why she wears a lanyard alarm (up to her entirely) I was asking the thread in general how common it is to wear one.

V uncommon never come across it before.

I am v unconvinced that alarms for women and girls are of any use in general at all.

Just my view and anyone who carries one for whatever reason then of course that's the right thing for them, no question.

Think you need to have a chat with the shop owner, about his employees behaviour but also about the area and how it is impacting on his sales. Sometimes businesses can be blindsided and don't realise what is damaging their business.
If I were him I would want to know about this. Don't be confrontational about it, just say you want to have a chat with him and explain what happened with his new employee and that the area is putting women off from shopping in the area. He may want to band together with other businesses to put pressure on the council and police to improve the area.

The posters who have indicated that maybe OP read guy incorrectly.

That's totally beside the point.

When employing anyone in a direct customer facing role. In this case retail. Their job is partly obv to do till etc.
But the massive fundamental requirement is that they are good with customers.

It is a given that retail customer facing people are-

Approachable but never intrusive

Know when a customer wants a chat (and chat to them neutrally following their lead assuming not inappropriate!) and when to minimise interaction and simply efficiently do what they need. Eg look in a rush, do not initiate chat, obviously bad time to start engaging. Answer any questions, make the sale fast, thank you bye.

Never make any customer feel badgered, uncomfy, forced into chat because impolite not to reply, obviously never make personal comments about body, appearance, state of health, or that they look happy/ sad/ harrassed/ worried etc.

Any questions however obvious the answer is be unfailingly friendly and helpful.

...

This situation is bizarre because most often it's the person working who has to handle any inappropriate comments, invasive questions, cut chatters off without pissing them off etc. I've had plenty retail Jobs and Jesus the things they come with! And even if queue think yep long chat now!

Any sales assistant/ shop floor role.

Must be able to meet the customer needs, have a decent idea of when to offer help and when to back off.

Read body language. Be friendly but neutral, NEVER EVER make customers uncomfortable.

Know how to politely disengage when a customer moves from needing advice etc to getting over the line in behaviour/ chat.

And of course (from my experience) know how to disengage if somewhat over line. And mix of personal view/ what management are like when goes too far over line.

I had this happen to me in a bookshop on Oxford street. This guy came up and asked me what I was leading through, told me I was so pretty he couldn’t believe I would read something so intellectual and that I must be just pretending to pick up men. I stood open mouthed staring at him trying to work out of i had heard what I had heard….
He kept glancing passed my head and looked so nervous. My work colleague had been to a PUA course at Tiger Tiger a few months before and had told us all about it. They get taken to shops and bars in groups and practice what they learned that day. They had a group leader with them. It dawned on me what was going on. I walked away without saying anything. He tried following me and I turned around and told him if he followed me again I would start screaming. He called me frigid. I told security and they asked him to leave. Another guy looked all panicked and must have been the team leader because he left a few minutes later followed by about 5 guys.

I felt sick

All this questioning of op is utterly irrelevant, and also illustrates the deep rooted societal norm of. Woman/ girl says dodgy bloke. Knee jerk response from most. Focus on her. Did she do something wrong? Is she over reacting? Did she handle the situation poorly? Is she too timid/ cowed/ sensitive etc? Could he be socially awkward/ just trying to be nice/ not inducate obvious discomfort how could he know/ incapable of differenting harmless chat from creepy etc etc...?

Zero relevance.

His job is the reverse of discomfiting customers so they go elsewhere in future.

It's a business. Customers are crucial. ANY behaviour which makes customers feel unsettled, means a fail at the most basic level.

I just wonder how many have worked in retail!

Jesus Christ whatamess!

That's really intimidating, creepy, scary etc.

Some of the PUA men who teach other men are terrifying.

There was one who got a lot of press with videos where he was approaching women, intimidated, touching etc. The women looked intimidated and how can I get away from this without verbal or worse.

It's essentially a fancy name for street harrassment. The intimidating sort.

Some have come to attention for coercion, rape etc.

It's about strategies that boil down to every hole's a goal and women are simply prey to target and fuck.

To me it's utterly outrageous, terrifying that PUA strategies focus on exploiting female social conditioning and natural caution when around random men approaching them in various situations including on the street.

In order to get laid, nothing more than that.

It's base misognyny. It's seeing it as a game. The men are playing the game to win. More women= more points in the game. The women/girls are no more than 2D objects roaming about, the point is to play the game well and score.

It's grim.

He sounds awful OP and well done for recognising what he was doing and not taking it personally.

I used to struggle with men invading my personal boundaries too. Although now I have a kid with me they leave me well alone!!

Variations of the following phrases help me, when I’m not feeling in the right frame of mind to tell them fuck off:

• I’m in a rush and don’t have time to talk to you.(in a shop/train station)
• I’ve had a long day and I don’t want to talk to anyone right now (when you can’t physically leave like on public transport)
• I’ve got a really sore throat and it hurts me to speak right now (good in taxis, trains)
• I’m with someone and he’s getting here soon (in nightclubs)

I know some may say the above involves making excuses and that women shouldn’t have to make them not to be negged, and I agree. But sometimes you just arent in the mood to fight with some random arsehole and just want to shut them down and make them go away quickly.

I find challenging their behaviour usually just makes them worse - more determined or defensive and angry.

They are good phrases :)

I am always amazed by so many women on MN who advocate the blunt nope type responses. Or the ones that involve being sarcy to the man, insulting or humiliating them (usually in a minor way but sometimes not).

In my experience, my long experience. It is an extremely risky strategy to go back at them with anything like that.

In fact anything at all.

If stuck on public transport. It's ok to simply move away. We have zero obligation to engage, play nice while indicating back off, answer questions, anything.

Say nothing/ excuse me/ just seen friend whatever and get away as far as poss preferably out of sight.

When pubs clubs and tbh Street as well.

Doing anything which doesn't let down gently not damaging their ego. CAN be met with verbal abuse, being followed and aggressively asked what's wrong with me then/ What's your problem. Can be in your face aggression, real rage, sometimes threats of physical violence and (rarely but happens) pushing, fronting up, actual violence.

It doesn’t matter what his intent was, it only matters what the impact on OP was. She doesn’t need to consider this intent in her determination on whether she wants to tolerate it. That’s his problem.

By all means, speak the the owner, and soon. This man is probably driving off new customers daily with that nonsense.

I don't know if I came across pick up artists but I've had guys say negative things about me when chatting me up. My reaction was to get away from them as soon as possible. Also if they are fundamentally physically unattractive to me, why would what they say make me attracted to them?

It's a strategy based on exploiting women/girls who are emotionally vulnerable, insecure, or simply have been impacted by constant insidious social conditioning. The messages subtle or overt that women/girls appearance is enormously important, that imperfections are failure and very serious failure at that.
That attracting blokes is THE measure of worth. That being of interest to men looks-wise is the thing that makes us confident.
That men are the choosers, the pursuers, the evaluators. Catching their attention and maybe drink offered, compliment, clear sexual interest is ego boosting, 'empowering'..
Etc etc.

PUA has advised men who listen how to exploit all this, capitalise on it. Common advice is to chat up woman think yay he thinks I'm amazing! Then throw in some stuff that says .. hmm not brilliant. Could be better. Not sure. You're lucky I'm chatting you up.

Idea is she gets moved from feeling great to not so great. Back of mind what not find right. He might walk away. Meaning approached then something about me put him off. Must convince him I'm worthy..

It's grim.
Of course doesn't always work.
Try another woman. Get there in the end.
Only after a fuck. Manipulating women's psychology seems like reasonable way to get what I want...

Eg- and loads on pua being fucking awful if Google

'Adnan Ahmed called himself 'Addy A-game' in videos he uploaded on YouTube showing himself approaching girls, in a bid to instruct others how to 'pick up' women.

But the 38-year-old was today convicted of threatening and abusive behaviour for approaching several young women, causing them fear and alarm.'

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7601285/amp/YouTube-pick-artist-jailed-leaving-victims-mentally-scarred.html

@EmmaH2022. Sorry I’ve just noticed your question. He’s my DHs bosses stepson. He left the army after many years and drifted into it. He is the cringest fucker ever. After his picture was shared on a documentary last year plus the #me too movement he seems to have changed tack and moved into Life coaching.

The PUA thing was a pyramid scheme. He would run bootcamps, often abroad. The attendees paid a lot of money to attend and were then encouraged to then become trainers. The tackticks they learned to pick up girls were sleazy, borderline rapey ie don’t take no for an answer etc
He and his partner went under the names of Mystery and
Discovery FFS!!

[quote Battytwatty]@EmmaH2022. Sorry I’ve just noticed your question. He’s my DHs bosses stepson. He left the army after many years and drifted into it. He is the cringest fucker ever. After his picture was shared on a documentary last year plus the #me too movement he seems to have changed tack and moved into Life coaching.

The PUA thing was a pyramid scheme. He would run bootcamps, often abroad. The attendees paid a lot of money to attend and were then encouraged to then become trainers. The tackticks they learned to pick up girls were sleazy, borderline rapey ie don’t take no for an answer etc
He and his partner went under the names of Mystery and
Discovery FFS!![/quote]
Oh. my. God.

So does he admit it or do you only know because he was on TV?

Also, I'm curious to know if he is a PUA or just "taught" it to make money.

Sorry for all the questions, just can't fathom knowing someone who talked about it openly.

I’d never heard of this before reading this thread and while it is creepy I can’t imagine anyone in their right mind falling for this load of baloney let alone for the men peddling it.

Loads of men will believe anything if it thinks it will get them laid.
And do things that are shit as well.

@CheeseMmmm

They are good phrases :)

I am always amazed by so many women on MN who advocate the blunt nope type responses. Or the ones that involve being sarcy to the man, insulting or humiliating them (usually in a minor way but sometimes not).

In my experience, my long experience. It is an extremely risky strategy to go back at them with anything like that.

In fact anything at all.

If stuck on public transport. It's ok to simply move away. We have zero obligation to engage, play nice while indicating back off, answer questions, anything.

Say nothing/ excuse me/ just seen friend whatever and get away as far as poss preferably out of sight.

When pubs clubs and tbh Street as well.

Doing anything which doesn't let down gently not damaging their ego. CAN be met with verbal abuse, being followed and aggressively asked what's wrong with me then/ What's your problem. Can be in your face aggression, real rage, sometimes threats of physical violence and (rarely but happens) pushing, fronting up, actual violence.

That would be a risky strategy for the man in my case, as they are risking having their bollocks twisted off. Have to say the blunt approach has never resulted in violence or threats though.

You're joking, right?

Risk to the man of the woman or girls violently assaulting him?

Don't be silly. I have heard of some women (girls? Not heard of but of course that doesn't mean never happened!) who have physically attacked men who wouldn't take no for an answer.

I've never seen it ever irl though! Have seen women starting/ being in fights but that's been with other women/girls, drunken brawls between a couple etc.

If it's as easy as that to get a man to back off then I do wonder how come we get assaulted raped etc so much.

Why do you think our sex (globally) is not utilising this?