Dealt with a guy serving me in a shop who made me feel like shit, and later realised he was a wannabe PUA

[parchedjanuary]

I'm actually so angry about what happened in the shop that I currently am incapable of explaining it here!!!

Arghhhh!!!

I will try and write a more coherent post tomorrow.

Basically, a local shop that sells very specific items. I went in last week. The guy that owns the shop served me. He was very helpful.

I went in again a few days ago. A new employee was working and the owner wasn't there. The new guy was incredibly rude, didn't help me at all, but equally told me how pretty he thought I was, asked me way to many personal questions, which I was so shocked about I stupidly answered. Did constant negging followed by weirdo complements. Then being really nice and friendly. But equally unhelpful. I felt terrible, couldn't wait to get out, kept thinking wtf???

I got home and remembered the thread on MN about women being approached by men/boys practicing their PUA (pick up artist) game.... and looking into it a bit more, I think this might have been what he was practicing.

I'm still so angry I can't even express what happened!!!

I do intend to go back in to the shop and hopefully see the owner and tell him what his employee is up to when left alone.

Sorry this post makes no sense at all. I'm just so sad and angry about it!!!

I will attempt another post with a better explanation when I'm a bit more calm

Like someone chatting you up? There’s a formal name for that now?

No it's not the same thing. Pick Up Artists have various techniques to throw women off guard and emotionally manipulate them to make them vulnerable. Negging is basically giving backhanded compliments to make women feel unsure of themselves.

@Ozgirl75 it's not just someone chatting you up. It's an awful, misogynistic method used by men (peddled by all kinds of online communities and "dating coach” types) to try and get women to sleep with them. It typically involves “negging” which is a way of manipulating women by intermittently complimenting and insulting them (with backhanded compliments) with the intention that the woman will feel increasingly anxious to gain the manipulator’s approval. It’s horrible, predatory behaviour.

Why would a woman be interested in someone if they were insulting you? Honestly I am only in my 40s but this sounds utterly bizarre to me. If a man wants to have sex with someone then surely being unpleasant isn’t the way to go about it.

The book came out about 15 years ago - and the reason I remember it is that there were a group of men locally who boasted about it

It is horrible to be on the receiving end of sudden insults, when you are just being polite and are least expecting it! It is also pretty easy to tell when a man is using it, not least because they actually learn and use scripted examples.

I just had a look to see if I could find any and two that popped up were “You’re really pretty, for an Asian girl” or “You’d have a great body if your breasts were a little bit bigger”

Good lord, that’s not a compliment. Does that actually work? I can’t imagine any of the feisty young women I know doing anything other than saying fuck off to someone saying that.

@Ozgirl75

Like someone chatting you up? There’s a formal name for that now?

No. "Negging" is a very specific and nasty way to approach a woman with comments designed to attack her confidence and get her off balance and begging for approval (and therefore sex) from the person dishing out the comments.

Examples:
"I really like that you don't put too much effort into your makeup - you know you can't pull off the glam look, well done"
"Salad - good choice. I hate these dumb girls who stuff their faces then cry about being fat."
"Burger? Go for it! I hate these fat people who pretend not to eat. You let it all hang out, I like your honesty."

It's very deliberate and very manipulative and sadly these techniques do work on women who've been conditioned to seek male approval and lack the confidence to speak up in the moment.

Well done OP on recognising it. I hope the owner hears you and fires this creep. Clearly he's a liability to the business. I also agree on recording him discreetly if it happens again.

Well, I'm typing too slow this morning clearly 😂

Wow that’s pretty despicable. Men - always finding a way to disappoint us in more creative ways.

@Ozgirl75

Good lord, that’s not a compliment. Does that actually work? I can’t imagine any of the feisty young women I know doing anything other than saying fuck off to someone saying that.

Not everybody is “feisty”. These men spend many, many hours and often lots of money learning these “skills”. Let’s not judge women who find themselves falling vulnerable to it.

PUA , Negging....

I started my thread by saying that I was too angry and upset to explain myself properly.....I guess I was just venting..... I said I would write another thread explaining it when I had calmed down. But then I seem to have got a bit carried away with this one.

PUA is a Pick up Artist. They are men (with I think very low self esteem), who learn particular was of speaking to women, particular rules to follow, that they believe will get women to have sex with them. They don't see women as equals. If you Google and read about it and go to some of their forums then it's all explained. It does very much involve interrupting women who are going about their every day stuff and practicing their techniques. It's a bit different than chatting up. Negging is giving a compliment and an insult all in one sentence. They believe in increasing their value by decreasing the womens value. It comes across as extremely manipulative and really treats women as they are extremely different species from men. Clearly most men don't do it. But it's becoming more common. They also believe women are very manipulative creatures and also playing "the game ". It's very close in some ways to the uncle movement. The most shocking thing I read on one of their forums was that they believe that if they get a woman into bed and she says she doesn't want to have sex, she is just saying that because she doesn't want to be thought of as easy.... but really she does want to have sex. That is just one example. If you read about it, you will recognise when a guy who is "chatting you up", is actually using these ridiculous techniques. I was completely and utterly confused by the guy in the shop. It wasn't'normal' chatting up. Before I went to the shop I had been reading a thread on MN about some women experiencing very peculiar behaviour from men and eventually someone suggested possible PUA behaviour. I had never heard of it before.

Creepy guy in the shop was so strange in every bit of his interaction with me it did make me wonder if he was possibly into the PUA thing. I looked it up in more detail and it was completely scripted behaviour.

I was going to write in details what actually happened but I was so angry and confused I just wanted to vent!!

Could he possibly just be a complete and utter bellend?

Plenty of men have tried this kind of thing in my time and I'm 40-odd - they would usually get told to fuck off.

You sound young and like you really need to work on your personal boundaries and having answers ready for creeps like this (I am not blaming you in any way). But you need to be forearmed with some kind of retort to shut them down.

I would also reassess whether it's a good idea to keep shopping in the area you've mentioned - it sounds well dodgy!

Thanks for posting op.
My dd18 really struggles with older men saying comments or leering at her.
I’m going to show her this thread to help her understand negging better.
It just confuses her when it happens.

incel not uncle!!!

@Bluebluemoon lol 😂 He was an utter bellend!! And I really do need to work on my boundaries! I'm older than I come across....it's been a life long problem for me!

I was struck by your comment that you wear a personal alarm on a lanyard. How common is this?

@Ozgirl75

Good lord, that’s not a compliment. Does that actually work? I can’t imagine any of the feisty young women I know doing anything other than saying fuck off to someone saying that.

Have you ever imagined that not all women, young or otherwise, are “feisty”? For a start, a significant percentage will have experienced abuse of some kind, including emotional abuse, that will have damaged their self esteem.

Girls are also still socialised to care far too much about other people’s opinions and feelings, particularly those of males. Not noticed the whole #bekind thing, and who it’s directed at? Hint: shops aren’t selling tops with that slogan on in the boys’ clothes section.

Maybe you think sexism has been eradicated and women and girls are all super “empowered” now, and no longer impacted by the generations of misogyny the world is built on. If so, you think wrong.

As Outlyingtrout says, no one should be judging the women and girls who are vulnerable to this kind of thing. Your attitude just sounds like implicit victim blaming.

Are you based in the U.K. if you don’t mind my asking?

Ok, I’m happy to admit that I’m wrong about this. It’s totally new to me, I don’t know any women who wouldn’t see through this, or just be totally confused by it. Maybe not if it was insidious in a relationship but a stranger in a shop can’t surely think they’ll get a woman into bed, a total stranger, by this kind of thing? That’s what I find bizarre. I fully understand that men will crush women down in relationships (a whole other issue) but this is just strangers on the street.

I’m glad you’re going to report this man, OP. I hope his boss takes it very seriously. (And yes, I’ve always thought there was a direct route from PUA to incel. Same dehumanising approach to women: seeing us not as people to have a relationship with but as objects to extract sex from.)

@PretzelneedsSalt Thank you for understanding me! It's really horrible to suddenly be on the end of it when you are least expecting it!

Also...someone said....it doesn't make sense, why would you want to have sex with them if they are insulting you. Exactly!! You won't want to, but their pick up bible and all their rules and techniques, makes them believe that us women are such simple creatures that if they can just crack the code (being horrible but nice), they will succeed in getting any woman to have sex with them. They literally discuss it on their forums...."I tried this , I didn't work, what should I try next?". Some of the things they say are so disgusting. It's literally about achieving sex by manipulating women. I do believe it is becoming much more common.

@ihatethecold

Thanks for posting op. My dd18 really struggles with older men saying comments or leering at her. I’m going to show her this thread to help her understand negging better. It just confuses her when it happens.

Poor girl It's mainly important to know that she doesn't have to engage Also to know that people will make you uncomfortable just for fun

OP I wouldn't do anything unless you're in there, the owner's in, and you can say "did you fire the asshat".

As for anyone questioning your alarm, they're not genuinely baffled, especially if they're a bloke. Be wary; they're probably going to start telling you you're a paranoid weirdo.

@fluffiphlox I think it's very uncommon to wear an alarm on a lanyard! I'm the only person I know who does it. However unfortunately I have been assaulted before. So it makes me feel a bit safer. I used to be a bit embarrassed going out with my alarmed lanyard, but now I don't feel embarrassed at all! Especially since the sad news stories over the last year. My alarm doesn't hurt me or anyone else. I think women who see it, would think why not?! Same with good men. And predator men can think whatever they want, but less likely to hurt me if I'm on my own in the dark. I actually think it's great and would be happy to see more women doing it. I guess it depends where you live though. In some places it would be over kill.

@Ozgirl75

Ok, I’m happy to admit that I’m wrong about this. It’s totally new to me, I don’t know any women who wouldn’t see through this, or just be totally confused by it. Maybe not if it was insidious in a relationship but a stranger in a shop can’t surely think they’ll get a woman into bed, a total stranger, by this kind of thing? That’s what I find bizarre. I fully understand that men will crush women down in relationships (a whole other issue) but this is just strangers on the street.

That’s a gracious admission. But yes, sadly there are women in the world whose radars have been so damaged that they could potentially fall prey to this kind of behaviour, even from a random stranger in a shop. Just as there are people who fall for every other type of con.

The fact you don’t personally know anyone like that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

@Ozgirl75 yes I live in an affluent city in the south of the uk.

@KaptainKaveman

what does 'PUA' mean?

I had to read the Op twice and then Google PUA. If you look online you will see. It stands for Pick Up Artist. Its a whole culture it seems of men using 'skills' to pick up women. A lot of it is concerned with misogyny and gas lighting ( you may have to Google that too) I am well into my 50s and I suppose some if this stuff never changes. Young men always had competitions as to who could pick up who. It just seems much bigger and nastier than in the olden days of my youth. However , regardless of all that, I think I would have just left the shop and ordered whatever niche product it was online. I would certainly speak to his boss but without the jargon.