Dealt with a guy serving me in a shop who made me feel like shit, and later realised he was a wannabe PUA

[parchedjanuary]

I'm actually so angry about what happened in the shop that I currently am incapable of explaining it here!!!

Arghhhh!!!

I will try and write a more coherent post tomorrow.

Basically, a local shop that sells very specific items. I went in last week. The guy that owns the shop served me. He was very helpful.

I went in again a few days ago. A new employee was working and the owner wasn't there. The new guy was incredibly rude, didn't help me at all, but equally told me how pretty he thought I was, asked me way to many personal questions, which I was so shocked about I stupidly answered. Did constant negging followed by weirdo complements. Then being really nice and friendly. But equally unhelpful. I felt terrible, couldn't wait to get out, kept thinking wtf???

I got home and remembered the thread on MN about women being approached by men/boys practicing their PUA (pick up artist) game.... and looking into it a bit more, I think this might have been what he was practicing.

I'm still so angry I can't even express what happened!!!

I do intend to go back in to the shop and hopefully see the owner and tell him what his employee is up to when left alone.

Sorry this post makes no sense at all. I'm just so sad and angry about it!!!

I will attempt another post with a better explanation when I'm a bit more calm

@Ozgirl75

Good lord, that’s not a compliment. Does that actually work? I can’t imagine any of the feisty young women I know doing anything other than saying fuck off to someone saying that.

They don’t bother with women who are “feisty”, they are specifically looking for women who are vulnerable to being abused. That is what abusers do

@Ozgirl75

Ok, I’m happy to admit that I’m wrong about this. It’s totally new to me, I don’t know any women who wouldn’t see through this, or just be totally confused by it. Maybe not if it was insidious in a relationship but a stranger in a shop can’t surely think they’ll get a woman into bed, a total stranger, by this kind of thing? That’s what I find bizarre. I fully understand that men will crush women down in relationships (a whole other issue) but this is just strangers on the street.

It's great that you are assertive enough for that - and probably you had wonderful role models who taught you healthy boundaries.

I wasn't. It was drummed into me that women were subservient to men. That my worth was determined by men. That if men 'flirted' with me, I should be flattered. I was taught that it was my job to fight off men's advances and if they succeeded, I clearly didn't fight hard enough. Which was fucking hilarious considering I was 7 stone and 5 foot tall, and a pretty little thing. I was taught that adults were always right, and could do what they wanted to a child, any child.

The first sexual assault of my life occurred before I was seven, no surprise really. The vulnerability was probably radiating off me even from then, and only progressed the same way in my teens and early adulthood. A good bit of counselling unravelled it a bit, but I've spent my life unpicking the damaging lessons of my childhood. Certain people can spot emotionally vulnerable people and hone in on them.

PUA is designed exactly to hone in on those vulnerable people, which is probably why you've never experienced it. A PUA would have spotted from the off that it wouldn't work on you and as they are ultimately nasty cowards who prey, would have steered well clear of you.

I was PUA'd by my boss in my mid twenties, so not exactly a situation that I could just tell him to fuck off and avoid him. It was also a remote site so I had to be driven to and from work with him. It gave him an excellent opportunity to practice his PUA, and the power differential also played a big part in his success. It was a horrible experience and one that took me a long time to get over - the confusion, gaslighting, emotional manipluation, and all the other stuff that PUA does is very damaging to someone who's usually already damaged in some way.

These days, I'd be like you. I'd be direct and not give a single fuck about the repercussions of it. But I'm also now middle aged and have noticed that I'm utterly invisible now to men in that way and especially not the demographic a PUA would target so I'm unlikely to get the opportunity to tear strips off a wannabee PUA.

op google the shark cage metaphor by Ursula Benstead, I think you will find it helpful

I must have missed the Bond film where he poses as a shop assistant in a rough part of town and harasses a woman who has only gone in to the shop to buy something essential.

[quote JinglingHellsBells]@Tillsforthrills Sorry but context is everything.

I don't agree with you but I'm not going to prolong an argument.[/quote]
Could you at least explain why context is everything in this case, it may help to see where you are coming from.

If you turn around and tell them to fuck off, they know not to waste further time on you. They will focus on the women who are conditioned not to tell obnoxious rude arseholes to fuck off, and start chipping away at their confidence. It’s a good filter for “women who might be vulnerable to being abused”. Saves them time.

Don't give too much headroom to this, or let it scare you away. Annoying, like a little fly, but no more.

I think I would have said (but probably thought about it 30 mins later instead of on the spot, of course) "I was wanting to buy (specific thing) I think I'll come back later when the other assistant's in, it doesn't look as if I'm getting anywhere here."

God forbid women should expect men to be able to engage like adults in social interactions

@JinglingHellsBells

I'm trying to understand how he actually got into a conversation with you.

In most shops, unless you are asking for shoes to be brought out, or wanting to try on clothing, why is there any need for chat?

If it's just food, you just fill your basket and take it to the till.

If he was trying to talk to you and it felt inappropriate, couldn't you just say 'I want to pay for my shopping, now please. Will you sort the payment, thanks.'

And then just not talk back if he tries to talk to you?

What exactly were you shopping for that needed him to chat to you? Maybe ciggies or booze and stuff that's behind a counter?

I genuinely don't understand as I've not been in any shop for years where anyone talks to me! (Unless it's make up counters and I'm asking for help.)

FFS maybe it was a car part, maybe it was a speaker cable, maybe she needed her shoes re-heeling. Maybe it was the Post Office and she needed to specify whether she wanted recorded 2nd class delivery or guaranteed 9am special delivery. Do you seriously never go in any shops where you need to talk to the shop assistant?

Urgh, haven't seen that in a long time. I remember men clumsily attempting this around 2006 ish. It was always so obvious what they were doing and pulling them up on it and making it clear we knew what they were doing was always fun. Dumbasses always seemed stunned we knew about it, whips the rug from under them pretty effectively.

[quote parchedjanuary]@RoaringtoLangClegintheDark I am exactly the kind of person that you are describing to OzGirl. I'm a lot older than I come across in this thread. I've experienced exactly the type of things you describe which means I have really crappie boundaries. And it's a bit of a never ending cycle. You start from young with terrible boundaries because of your childhood, then you get abused as an adult, boundaries get worse, more abuse, boundaries get worse, and on it goes!!

I've literally had to do so much work , to even gain a tiny bit of boundaries! I'm actually so pleased with myself for noticing that something was up with creepy shop guy! Also predatory type guys can see a mile of (I don't know how), if you have a history of abuse/boundary issues.

Even though the shop experience made me feel utterly terrible. And I felt terrible when he was talking to me. I did think after, well done you! Your instincts kicked in and you listened to them! You were sweating and trembling and thinking get me out of here! Honestly a few years ago I would have just thought, what a lovely man and 100% believed the insults he gave me 😊[/quote]
Absolutely bloody well done you! Those cycles are indeed so hard to break, and the physical impact of the situation on you is very real, as you describe - so you’ve done really well to get where you are now.

Ugh, OP this sounds awful. I can just imagine being exactly the same and all polite while internally going WTF. I think rather than saying something, it's OK to just get yourself out of the situation as quickly as possible at the first opportunity.

A few years ago I was on a coach to a city for a work event (2 hr journey) and the only seat available was next to a innocuous looking man with earphones in. Only he wasn't innocuous, took his earphones out and asked me loads of personal innapropriate questions despite me barely replying after I realised the type he was and burying my head in my book. I asked him nothing. He took a book out of my bag to look at it without asking and at the end of the journey took a business card (they were in the side pocket and visible) also without asking and put it in his pocket. He was generally incredibly persistent and I was trapped as no other seats plus the ridiculous feeling that I couldn't be rude to him. I literally dived off the coach and almost ran in the any direction as soon as I got off, I felt so scared. He also kept saying he "might" go to the work event I was heading to so I had the worry of looking out for him all day. He did email me after (luckily my mobile number wasn't on the business card) but only twice thank god. I had to tell my boss in case he showed up at work.

Patkinney, it's just baffling when a man shows up to tell us the error of our ways despite so many of us having similar stories of boundary trampling stranger men. Did you even read the OP and other posts? This was not a "poor man just being a bit forward". I also have experienced nice men making small talk or even asking me out - absolutely no issue. We are not stupid, we know the difference!! And men aren't stupid and they know the difference too.

These labels are a complete red herring. I don’t know why women on here need them - PUA/Incel/Wendy/Karen etc.

You went into a shop, the new assistant was a twat, you won’t go in there again.

@TatianaBis

These labels are a complete red herring. I don’t know why women on here need them - PUA/Incel/Wendy/Karen etc.

You went into a shop, the new assistant was a twat, you won’t go in there again.

Yep - this

We didn't pick the name, the PU artists did. Its a specific behaviour that follows a predictable pattern.

@TatianaBis

These labels are a complete red herring. I don’t know why women on here need them - PUA/Incel/Wendy/Karen etc.

You went into a shop, the new assistant was a twat, you won’t go in there again.

Exactly this.

@TatianaBis

These labels are a complete red herring. I don’t know why women on here need them - PUA/Incel/Wendy/Karen etc.

You went into a shop, the new assistant was a twat, you won’t go in there again.

If you don't have the language, you can't name the "thing". Which is precisely why people like JK Rowling is fighting so hard to retain the meaning of the word "woman". And I strongly object to the lumping of the misogynistic use of Karen with the description of a misogynistic bunch of men.

PUAs have been around for ages. I find laughing at them helps

@JinglingHellsBells

I needed vape liquid for my e cigarette. I gave up smoking one month ago, by vaping. I ordered more liquid online. It was sent 1st class. There has been no postman until 20 minutes ago. I have searched deliveroo and Uber eats but alas, I couldn't find the one I needed. I could have walked into town to the main shopping Center.... but there is a shop up the road much closer. I don't normally go there, because the road it is on is very very worrying. I thought I would pop up there to buy some vape juice on this rare occasion. The shop is what I believe is called a 'head shop'. I've never been inside it before. They sell all sorts of smoking paraphernalia. I thought it would be okay to go up there just once to purchase some vape liquid while awaiting my delayed delivery. It's very very quiet in the shop. And yes, you do need to ask for what you want. The shop owner served me. He was very polite and helpful . I used it all and still no postman. So I had to go back. I then met the creep. He was horrible to me. I won't give examples of what he said, because individually the things he said could be explained away as innocent. Overall the conversation was horrible. I felt terrible. He made me feel sick. He commented on my appearance....giving me compliments and then a massive insult disguised as a compliment, he asked me personal questions, why I don't have a boyfriend, said something nice and then immediately something really horrible about why I don't have a boyfriend.... I shouldn't have answered his questions but I for some reason felt obligated (my issue I know), the conversation continued like that. I had paid and was backing away towards the exit but I just felt very confused and was really hard to stop the conversation and leave. I did get out of the shop eventually obviously, but I was left feeling so stressed, I didn't know why, I was sweating so much. He said many compliments "your so pretty " "uh thank you " followed by "but I don't know what your character is like?"....weird. I just wasn't expecting any of it. I just wanted to buy some liquid for my vape. I am about 100% sure that when men go into the shop he does not speak to them how he spoke to me. He would be likely to be knocked out.

I am just a woman who went into a shop to purchase some vape liquid. It was too stressful. He was a creep.

And I know I am going to regret even sharing this tiny bit of the interaction because it will be questioned. "Don't see what he did wrong " etc

I am very grateful for the women on here who have understood me right from the beginning without needing explanation. They understand how as a woman you can be doing a simple every day thing and have to deal with some unexpected weirdos intruding on your day.

I was really upset and angry.

It's difficult for me to put it all in to words. But anyway, it happened. I went to the shop. Got intimidated and creeped on. I left feeling very upset. The postman has now delivered my package and I'm going back one more time to inform the nice man who owns the shop that his assistant is urrrrggghhhh

@TatianaBis

These labels are a complete red herring. I don’t know why women on here need them - PUA/Incel/Wendy/Karen etc.

You went into a shop, the new assistant was a twat, you won’t go in there again.

Exactly this.

And I know I am going to regret even sharing this tiny bit of the interaction because it will be questioned. "Don't see what he did wrong " etc

No, you're right to share it as it gives some context - it's obvious he was completely inappropriate.

Even taking away the labels, the comments themselves, how you acted etc - it's irrelevant. You went into a shop and were basically harassed by the shop attendant. There is no excuse for it.

If I went to my local Waitrose and the checkout guy told me "you're so pretty" I would go and make a complaint about him, there's no doubt in my mind - it's completely inappropriate. Not the time or the place. He's at work for fucks sake.

Please do make a complaint to the manager to try and dissuade this knob from doing it to anyone else.

@StressforChristmas I understand. I have a similar history.

I'm going to leave this conversation for now. I'm really glad that we are taking about it. It's important that we talk about it. And it's important that we, as women, look after each other.

Thank you to everyone who has responded to my post. I was unsure about posting and I just wanted to get my feelings of my chest. So many people here have really helped me understand why I felt so intensely about something that was difficult to put into words. As a result I hope that next time, and I'm sure there will be a next time unfortunately, I will be quicker to respond and object. Thank you so much everyone

Oh dear, vape shops do attract knobs unfortunately. I don’t know why but they really do. Microbreweries and artisanal coffee shops have a disproportionate number of misogynist twats working in them too, but vape shops are the worst.

There is a “type” who thinks they are a world expert on coffee roasts or hops or whatever, and women need to be shooed away from this arcane knowledge. It is small niche shops who attract this type of tosser.

The PUA label is important in this case imo. It's a script. If more of us can recognise it then vulnerable women are less likely to fall victim to it or be confused/upset by it. If a woman recognises a PUA when being "practised on" (ugh), there's probably still a feeling of violation but the woman won't be wondering what she did to deserve the veiled insults. Obviously he's also a twat either way so that label does work well as an addition

[quote parchedjanuary]@JinglingHellsBells

I needed vape liquid for my e cigarette. I gave up smoking one month ago, by vaping. I ordered more liquid online. It was sent 1st class. There has been no postman until 20 minutes ago. I have searched deliveroo and Uber eats but alas, I couldn't find the one I needed. I could have walked into town to the main shopping Center.... but there is a shop up the road much closer. I don't normally go there, because the road it is on is very very worrying. I thought I would pop up there to buy some vape juice on this rare occasion. The shop is what I believe is called a 'head shop'. I've never been inside it before. They sell all sorts of smoking paraphernalia. I thought it would be okay to go up there just once to purchase some vape liquid while awaiting my delayed delivery. It's very very quiet in the shop. And yes, you do need to ask for what you want. The shop owner served me. He was very polite and helpful . I used it all and still no postman. So I had to go back. I then met the creep. He was horrible to me. I won't give examples of what he said, because individually the things he said could be explained away as innocent. Overall the conversation was horrible. I felt terrible. He made me feel sick. He commented on my appearance....giving me compliments and then a massive insult disguised as a compliment, he asked me personal questions, why I don't have a boyfriend, said something nice and then immediately something really horrible about why I don't have a boyfriend.... I shouldn't have answered his questions but I for some reason felt obligated (my issue I know), the conversation continued like that. I had paid and was backing away towards the exit but I just felt very confused and was really hard to stop the conversation and leave. I did get out of the shop eventually obviously, but I was left feeling so stressed, I didn't know why, I was sweating so much. He said many compliments "your so pretty " "uh thank you " followed by "but I don't know what your character is like?"....weird. I just wasn't expecting any of it. I just wanted to buy some liquid for my vape. I am about 100% sure that when men go into the shop he does not speak to them how he spoke to me. He would be likely to be knocked out.

I am just a woman who went into a shop to purchase some vape liquid. It was too stressful. He was a creep.

And I know I am going to regret even sharing this tiny bit of the interaction because it will be questioned. "Don't see what he did wrong " etc

I am very grateful for the women on here who have understood me right from the beginning without needing explanation. They understand how as a woman you can be doing a simple every day thing and have to deal with some unexpected weirdos intruding on your day.

I was really upset and angry.

It's difficult for me to put it all in to words. But anyway, it happened. I went to the shop. Got intimidated and creeped on. I left feeling very upset. The postman has now delivered my package and I'm going back one more time to inform the nice man who owns the shop that his assistant is urrrrggghhhh[/quote]
There are many , many of us on here who know exactly what you mean Op. I don't think a man could ever understand it because it will never have happened to them and if they are with their girlfriend it will not happen to her on that occasion. When you know you know.